Pa Auk and comments on Nibbana etc.

[Admin: These post moved from this topic: ] Ledi Sayadaw’s note on momentariness - #37 by RobertK

I see most of your (and some other people’s here) views are based on the Confidence about an assumed Enlightenment or attainment of a modern Master or lineage.

Therefore their interpretation of the Tipitaka also biased towards that direction. This is a serious mistake that shortens the longevity of the Sasana, I think.

Such a position is not allowed by the Ancient Theravada.

Let’s examine this your “non-allowance”. Let me know the exact citation where this is not allowed in the scriptures. As far as I understand, if students of venerable Sāriputta and venerable Moggallāna believed the same thing as you do, they would have never become their students and never become Enlightened based on their instructions.

You may like to know that the Arahanthood of Mahasi Sayadaw was approved by gods themselves. Similarly, Webu Sayadaw and Sun Lun Sayadaw were visited by deities for teaching about Dhamma, likewise Maha Bodhi Myaing Sayadaw and Mrauk Oo Sayadaw, two masters who live until today. In fact, I myself met with Mrauk Oo Sayadaw and discussed with him the visits of deities who come to hear his Dhamma Teaching. A medical doctor was present himself when deities visited Maha Bodhi Myaing Sayadaw for Dhamma teaching, I have myself read his account of this experience in the original Burmese language.

In SN 3.11, the Buddha says that a wise person should check an Arahant himself.

If I understand your suggestion correctly, you say that we should actually not check monks whether they are Arahants and we should not assume whether they are Arahanats or not. However, it seems to me that this your proposition does not seem to be in accordance with the Sattajatila Sutta. In fact, it runs very much contrary to the way lay people, monks, and even kings dealt with their teachers. There were quite a few cases in Myanmar when monks where checked for their attainments, but let me share them with you in a different post if you ask for that.

:sun_with_face:

it is all in commentaries and subcommentaries. Venerable Saydawgyi does make things up and documents things well. It should be known that his books are approved by the sasana committee . If it were not correct, it would not be allowed for printing. Previous refusals for printing were merely political.. the majority of changes were related to past future present being represented as past present future.

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Could you please share the source for this? I’d like to read or listen to his actual statement regarding that visit to the USA.

@jansen I don’t think that Sayadawgyi has been to the usa since 2014. I could be wrong, but I think it has been that long. “Several Years ago” would not constitute 12 years ago. He has been restricted to 3 hour flights maximum for a long time. He has mostly been in Nepal and Vietnam and maybe some parts of SE Asia for the past few years.

Sorry jansen but you never studied with Pa Auk Sayadaw so you misunderstand the source of this meditation techniques. Firstly I lived with him for many years and I was the first foreigner every to study with him. I know the way he teaches very well and you don’t understand on what it is based. There are a couple of keys to understanding the necessity of knowing the causes of things which are clearly mentioned in Mahasatipatthana sutta and Anatta lakkhana sutta. As well as explained in the visuddhimagga. Sayadaw got all this methods from the visuddhimagga and I was just talking with him about in the last few days. But to summarise here is where you need to focus… In every section of mahasatipatthana sutta there is this paragraph repeated throughout. …in kayanupassana the paragraph looks like this. “Thus he dwells perceiving again and again the body note27 as just the body (not mine, not I, not self, but just a phenomenon) in himself; or he dwells perceiving again and again the body as just the body in others;note28 or he dwells perceiving again and again the body as just the body in both himself and in others.note29 He dwells perceiving again and again the cause and the actual appearing of the body; or he dwells perceiving again and again the cause and the actual dissolution of the body; or he dwells perceiving again and again both the actual appearing and dissolution of the body with their causes.note30 To summarize, he is firmly mindful of the fact that only the body exists (not a soul, a self or I). That mindfulness is just for gaining insight (vipassana) and mindfulness progressively. Being detached from craving and wrong views note31 he dwells without clinging to anything in the world.note32 Thus, bhikkhus, this is a way in which a bhikkhu dwells perceiving again and again the body as just the body.”

So the causes of the arising of the body are not in the present and you have to discern them. So this is showing how you need to realise how paticcasamupada works over the 3 times. This the brief explanation which everyone misses. You can see this style of paragraph repeated after every contemplation of body, vedana, citta or dhamma. This is the biggest departure that Pa auk sayadaw had from other methods. It is also supported in the visuddhimagga in panna section. But I would have to look up that later.

Sayadaw also elaborates the paragraph of anatta lakkhana sutta in a similar way which is in accordance with the pali and it very literal telling us a similar thing to do vipassana on every part of the 5 khandhas over past present and future.

His teachers did not teach this to him. He worked it out himself because he is a bit of a genius.

People when he first started teaching were resistant to his teaching and tried to refute it, but no one has succeeded based on suttas or commentaries or sub commentaries. He saw something that no one had noticed before. It took me a while to understand it but it is really amazing how he put all the pieces together.

Is it correct I dont know but no one can prove him wrong with suttas or commentaries. He is a brilliant man and worth spending the time to understand what he actually teaches.

He is the first person I ever met who could turn the visuddhimagga into a living breathing method.

Dear Dhamma friends,

First, I wish Pa Auk Sayadaw happiness, good health, and a long life. I wish Pa Auk Sayadaw to be successful, to be respected by all humans and non-humans, and to enjoy peace, freedom, and, most importantly, the Dhamma.

I appreciate Pa Auk Sayadaw’s teachings immensely. He is the greatest expert and master of concentration-based methods. I have never seen (and I have ca. 100 000 documents on Buddhism) a document that would explain concentration (samatha) practice even to the level (let alone better) as Pa Auk Sayadaw explains it. The thoroughness is unequalled.

At the same time, Pa Auk Sayadaw’s Vipassana teaching is based on several misunderstandings that can be traced in the Sub-Commentaries from which he quotes.

See the recording and transcript of Pa Auk Sayadaw’s horrible misunderstanding of an extremely important point about Enlightenment. See the transcript of what he said during his Dhamma talk. You can download and watch and/or read the Pa Auk Sayadaw’s statements from here.

“Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ, taṃ pathaviyā pathavattena ananubhūtaṃ.”* (MN 49. Brahmanimantanika Sutta) Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ“ – these words are quite important, okay? Viññāṇaṃ- In this phenomenon of noble Nibbāna, viññāṇa (means) Enlightened ones‘ Path knowledge (maggañāṇa), Enlightened ones‘ Fruition knowledge (phalañāṇa), the knowledge of reflection (paccavekkhaṇāñāṇa).

By that knowledge an insight is known and seen. Taṃ- that noble phenomenon of Nibbāna, viññāṇaṃ- the Enlightened ones‘ Path knowledge, the Enlightened ones‘ Fruition knowledge (phalañāṇa), the knowledge of reflection (paccavekkhaṇāñāṇa) are so called knowledges by which an insight is known and seen. Anidassanaṃ- it is not possible to get insight, knowing and seeing, by eye consciousness. Anantaṃ- there is no limitation of arising (uppāda) (or) cessation (bhaṅga), sabbatopabhaṃ- shines all around, completely. Nibbāna, okay?

The noble phenomenon of Nibbāna is continuously-always radiating-shining, okay? So, regarding continuously-always shining, "Sabbaso pabhāsampannaṃ, nibbānato hi añño dhammo sapabhataro vā jotivantataro vā parisuddhataro vā paṇḍataro vā natthi“ (MNA 2.310), thus the Commentary explains. The element of Nibbāna is so excellent, that a phenomenon more shining, a phenomenon more radiating, a phenomenon more pure, clear(er) phenomenon does not exist in the world. Nibbāna is the most radiating-shining phenomenon. Thus (the Commentary) explains.[1]

So, in Nibbāna, regarding the presence of the color of light, quite a lot of the modern meditation masters do not want to agree. Why they don’t want to agree? There is a reason. What reason? After meditating very hard, (they) get so tired, that even while sitting (they) fall asleep. When they fall asleep, (they) do not dream. Bhavaṅga (moments of unconscious life-continuum) happen in succession, and because (the moments) of bhavaṅga happened, (they) abruptly awake from the bhavaṅga and (it) is like waking up from being asleep. So, there he (the meditation master) is sleeping, hence (he) doesn’t encounter any light. Their experience, the knowledge and seeing of their experience (they) do not encounter any light, hence what do they think? “It is not true, that there is a color-light in Nibbāna.” So, this is what happens to him (a meditation master).

Now the Buddha here teaches exactly: sabbatopabhaṃ - (Nibbāna) is continuously-always radiating-shining. And the Commentaries (say) in the world there is absolutely nothing that is radiating-shining more than Nibbāna, More- pure, clean, clear; a phenomenon in the world (more shining etc., than Nibbāna) doesn’t exist. The Buddha teaches thus, and the Commentaries further explain. So, regarding that place I would like to respectfully inform (you about something) further. In our chapter on upakkilesa, in the ten impurities of insight knowledge the so-called obhāsa-upakkilesa issue is also included as obhāsa. This “obhāsa” means color-light. What is this obhāsa? Mahāṭīkā masters explain (it) also in detail. So, in the process of the insight-impulses (vipassanā-javana-vīthi-citta) or also when practicing concentration (samatha), the succession of samatha impulses (samatha-javana-citta) which meditate on concentration (samatha) Are present, especially (in the case of) jhāna-mind like in the fourth jhāna.

Here if (somebody) has been meditating on the meditation of inbreath-outbreath, the clear-shining couter-sign of inbreath-outbreath appears and when (the meditator) takes the object of the clear-shining counter-sign of inbreath-outbreath, as (he) establishes the concentration further, the meditation mind sinks into the object of the clear-shining countersign of inbreath-outbreath and peacefully attaches (to it) and stays (there). When (it) stays (there), jhāna of such sinking and staying, let’s say for the mind (in) jhāna-meditation (jhāna-samādhi) of the fourth jhāna-meditation, okay, if (he) arrived to the fourth jhāna-meditation, because of the accompanying power of mind, the materialities are arisen because of the mind spread throughout the body. If the materiality-groupings (rūpa-kalāpa) are arisen because of the mind were analysed into elements, in each and every grouping there are eight natural phenomena, i.e., earth (solidity), water (cohesion), fire (temperature/decaying/digestion), air (support/pressure/movement), appearance (color), smell, taste, (and) nutritive essence. The element of vaṇṇadhātu (appearance/color), in those eight things there, is bhāsurarūpa- immensely clear-shining nature. Because the element of mind (cittadhātu) is clear, in the material phenomena which arose due to the element of mind there arise clear-shining color-appearance.

Furthermore, in each of the groupings (kalāpa) there is again the element of fire (temperature). This element of fire is called utu (temperature). Every element of fire in every grouping further repeatedly gives rise to new (and) new groupings of materiality for many times. When the power of meditation strengthens, as it has strengthened, (the light) spreads-escapes from the inside to the outside. How much does it spread? That depends on the power of the person’s meditation (samādhi). Some within a room, some even one yojana (perhaps 12.72 miles), some even two yojanas, and so on, thus (the light) spreads. Because of one moment of mind-impulse in a higher-knowledge (abhiññā-javana-citta-dhātu-khaṇa) of venerable Anuruddha’s fourth jhāna, the arisen light-color spread to as many as one thousand Wheel Systems (worlds). So powerful (was that light). The materiality arisen due to mind when the mind-element’s power is very powerful, materiality arisen due to the fire(temperature)-conditioned-by-mind successively arisen from that materiality arisen due to mind (i.e., mind gives rise to materiality and that materiality gives rise to temperature), (it is) simply the shining of those color-element-materiality-objects (vaṇṇadhātu-rūpārammaṇa) included in the materiality-groupings. When the shining of the color-element-materiality-objects strengthens very well, the color-element-materiality-objects arisen due to jhāna mind do not strengthen this much.[2]

If (one) has arrived to the portion of vipassanā (insight meditation), due to the power of the mind-element which arose together with the insight-knowledge (vipassanā-ñāṇa) light-color (which) is similar, of the same appearance, arises.[3] Some of these light-colors spread-develop within a room, some (to the distance) of one yojana, (some) two yojanas, and so on.

Actually, the Commentary of Visuddhimagga mentions two great famous elders who lived in the monastery of Cittala mountain, in the island of Sri Lanka. There is provided a discussion of a subject related to this light-color. One great elder, his light-color escaped-spread from within the room and (he) looks into the distance toward the flowers which were offered in the evening by them (the two elders) on the precincts of the cetiya and sees all of the flowers. The (other) elder, however, looks not only to the flowers, (he) looks into the distance toward the dear fish that stay in the sea (and sees them all). (Visuddhimagga) mentions how (one) can see thanks to the power of this light-color, okay? This is the power of knowledge-color.

In the way that the concentration-meditation mind (samatha-bhāvanā-citta) and insight-meditation-mind (vipassanā-bhāvanā citta) give rise to light-color called "knowledge-color,“ when insight-knowledge of a good person matures and arrives at end of Enlightened ones‘ Path knowledge (maggañāṇa), Enlightened ones‘ Fruition knowledge (phalañāṇa), let’s say Enlightened ones‘ Path knowledge (maggañāṇa), Enlightened ones‘ Fruition knowledge (phalañāṇa) is just like that, it gives rise to groupings of matter arisen due to mind. (What) arises because of that mind; in every grouping of the materiality arisen due to mind which appeared because of the Enlightened ones‘ Path mind, Enlightened ones‘ Fruition mind, the color-element-materiality-objects (vaṇṇa-dhātu-rūpārammaṇa) are included. That materiality-object also has the nature of being clear-shining.

Once more, because this materiality arisen due to mind of Path mind (and) Fruition mind, there are in every grouping of materiality-arisen-due-to -mind elements of fire (temperature), (and due to) each (of them) successfively appear groupings of materiality arisen due to temperature, and in each (of them) there is included color-element-materiality-object. This color-element-materiality-objects also have the nature of being clear-shining. Thus, what this means, Path… when a meditating person takes the object of Nibbāna by the Enlightened ones‘ Path knowledge, Fruition knowledge, Nibbāna is also clear-shining. The materiality arisen due to mind which appear because of Enlightened ones‘ Path mind (and) Fruition mind, from there the successively arisen materialities arisen due to temperature, The color-element-matter-objects which stay in those materialities are also clear-shining.

Good people, who are taking Nibbāna as an object, can encounter this nature if (they) pay attention to and look for (it). So, the people who do not want to accept this light-color, if (you) ask them why they don’t want to accept this light-color, according to their experience, the Nibbāna (which they) experience is the Nibbāna of being asleep. Because it is a Nibbāna of being asleep, they do not want to accept this light-color.


[1] The Majjhima Nikāya Commentary and Sub-Commentary in this paragraph of Pāḷi text shows that the meaning of this word "pabha“ (shining) is to be understood in a metaphorical way. The word pabha should be understood as a name of a shore, or it should be read as "pabhū“ (better) or "pavisa“ (entering the shore of Nibbāna), or that Nibbāna "shines“ by the absense of darkness or anything immaterial. According to the Dīgha Nikāya Commentary and Sub-Commentary, the word pabha should be read as "papa“ (water). Nibbāna is subsistent (available, unending) everywhere like water in the oceans. Or Nibbāna "shines“ by the total absence of defilement. See exact quotations and explanations below.

"Atha vā pabhanti titthassa nāmaṃ, sabbato pabhamassāti sabbatopabhaṃ. Nibbānassa kira yathā mahāsamuddassa yato yato otaritukāmā honti, taṃ tadeva titthaṃ, atitthaṃ nāma natthi. Evamevaṃ aṭṭhatiṃsāya kammaṭṭhānesu yena yena mukhena nibbānaṃ otaritukāmā honti, taṃ tadeva titthaṃ. Nibbānassa atitthaṃ nāma kammaṭṭhānaṃ natthi. Tena vuttaṃ sabbatopabhanti.” (MNA 2.310) The Sub-Commentary further explains that (a) because there is no darkness (tamo), Nibbāna shines; (b) how the word “pabha” is a different form of “pabhū” (better), thus exalting the great element of Nibbāna, (c) that Nibbāna “shines” by the absence of immaterial phenomena, or (d) that is in fact a different way of pronouncing “pavisa” (entering the shore of Nibbāna) - Apabhassarabhāvahetūnaṃ sabbaso abhāvā sabbato pabhāti sabbatopabhaṃ. Tenāha ‘‘nibbānato hī’’tiādi. Tathā hi vuttaṃ – ‘‘tamo tattha na vijjatī’’ti. (Netti. 104) pabhūtamevāti pakaṭṭhabhāvena ukkaṭṭhabhāvena vijjamānameva. Arūpībhāvena adesikattā sabbato pabhavati vijjatīti sabbatopabhaṃ. Tenāha ‘‘puratthimadisādīsū’’tiādi. Pavisanti etthāti pavisaṃ, tadeva sa-kārassa bha-kāraṃ, vi-kārassa ca lopaṃ katvā vuttaṃ ‘‘pabha’’nti. Tenāha ‘‘titthassa nāma’’nti. (MNṬ 2.317) The Dīgha Nikāya Sub-Commentary explains “pabha” as a different way of pronouncing “papa” (water), thus elaborating on the Commentarial explanation of the same words (Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ) mentioned in DN 11. Kevaṭṭa/Kevaddha Sutta and adds that “shining all around” means that Nibbāna “shines by the total absence of defilement” – “Titthassa nāma’’nti vatvā tattha nibbacanaṃ dassetuṃ ‘‘papanti etthāti papa’’nti vuttaṃ. Ettha hi papanti pānatitthaṃ. Bha-kāro kato niruttinayena. Visuddhaṭṭhena vā sabbatopabhaṃ, kenaci anupakkiliṭṭhatāya samantato pabhassaranti attho.” (DNṬ 1.393)

[2] I.e., the shining strengthens, but not the color-objects. Perhaps the groupings cannot strengthen, they can only cause arising of other similar groupings. Anyway, the meaning here is not clear to me.

[3] I.e., insight-knowledge is accompanied by a powerful mind and this powerful mind is a cause of shining.


Regarding the Pa Auk Sayadaw’s statement, that of course can be disputed in any way - as any human experience. I heard during my visit in the USA, which happened exactly in 2020, March 10-30th. I was guiding at a meditation retreat in Fresno (Myauk Oo Sayadaw’s Meditation Center) and then in Florida (Tayzawbathar Kyaung). During one of these two meditation retreats, I explained the problem of Pa Auk Sayadaw’s misunderstanding of the commentarial glosses. In that context, one participant said that during a prior visit to the USA, Pa Auk Sayadaw was asked whether he had achieved Stream-Entry. Pa Auk Sayadaw then said that this kind of question should not be asked and that he did not achieved Stream-Entry. Of course, Pa Auk Sayadaw may not have said this. Perhaps a deity was impersonating Pa Auk Sayadaw. I heard a story in Myanmar that a monk (not Pa Auk Sayadaw) was giving a Dhamma talk in one village and at the same time in a different village he was giving it also - which I understand as that a deity was impersonating that monk. Based on this story, I wonder whether Pa Auk Sayadaw was similarly impersonated. Or perhaps the person who told me what they heard and saw was just dreaming this situation, and their memory mixed the dream with their real experience of meeting Pa Auk Sayadaw.

False memories is a thing.

What is more important to me, is that:

  • Pa Auk Sayadaw suggested that the experience of Nibbāna, even after achieving Enlightenment, involves light. This is a clear misunderstanding of what the Commentaries say: the word he took to mean “light” does not mean light at all.
  • Pa Auk Sayadaw frivolously cast a blanket assumption that all monks who enter Nibbana but do not experience light, in fact, sleep.
  • Pa Auk Sayadaw laughed at all monks he knew who did not experience light during Nibbāna.

Because of these three points, I am convinced that Pa Auk Sayadaw is not just a puthujjana, void of any Enlightenment, but, more importantly, he is not and will not be able to attain Enlightenment due to his slandering of Enlightened monks. I hope to hear Pa Auk Sayadaw apologize for slandering and mocking Enlightened monks, because I wish him to achieve Enlightenment in this life.

Because I am not a Pa Auk Sayadaw follower, I am not biased toward or against him. I am observing and learning. My teacher is the Buddha, and the Buddha said that we should neither accept nor reject what another monk says is a Buddha’s Teaching. Instead, we should compare it with the Buddha’s Dhamma and accept or reject it accordingly.

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Firstly all the stories you hear about monks in myanmar are never reliable because people hear what they want to hear. They make up all sorts of nonsense about famous Sayadaws.

Secondly sayadaw would never tell you what he has attained or not. So that is not how he would speak but he would say it is not a proper question to ask a monk.

Sayadaw has never slandered enlightened or unenlightened monks. He has just given his opinion on how many people think they have achieved enlightenment when he thinks they dont have the characteristics of knowledge that would be needed according to his understanding.

Just the same as what you have just done about his method.

Utimately all that speculation is above what I know but I just leave it all in the to work out later basket and it will become known for oneself when the time is right.

It is well worth though studying his explanations as they are quite informative about certain things that he can really make clear. As always you just pan for gold and take the good stuff and leave the rest. I got a lot of wealth of knowledge and practical and theory from Sayadaw so i know he is definitely not an average person.

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we discussed this point: Ven. Dhammapāla on Nibbāna

:folded_hands:

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@gregk It is clear to me that you are hurting. Your master is someone you believe is perfect, and he is now portrayed as unenlightened. Furthermore, he is quoted as saying things you cannot accept as possibly coming from him. Such a reaction is very natural, and it is completely right for you to feel that way. There is a saying in Myanmar that goes “သဒ္ဓါလွန်တော့ တဏှာ ကိန်း” [thaddhar lwun-dawt, tahnar kane]. This proverb translates to mean that too much faith leads one to succumb to craving.

We both agree about the unreliability of laymen’s hearsay, but we cannot reject the probability of this specific event. We are stuck on the issue of trust. To clarify this point, the person who shared Pa Auk Sayadaw’s statement was attending my meditation retreat. This retreat included the strict observance of the Eight Precepts, which, as you surely know, is a code of conduct that explicitly forbids lying. Therefore, we can be sure that no lying was involved. The message was very clear. The layperson was a man around 40 to 50 years old, and he recounted his own direct experience. Other people were present during the original event and during his recounting of it, and this public setting makes it highly unlikely that the story was fabricated.

It is good that you are willing to agree that the teachings from Pa Auk Sayadaw I quoted lack scriptural support. You acknowledge this despite your strong attachment to Pa Auk Sayadaw’s teachings. My hope is that you will continue exploring the truth as truth, rather than relying only on your master’s teachings. Ultimately, both you and your master are human beings; you are not perfected Buddhas. However, the Buddha’s Teachings are available, and we can read and follow them faithfully.

Pa Auk Sayadaw laughed with his audience when he suggested that monks who do not experience light during their Enlightenment are simply falling asleep. This behavior is proof to me that he was ridiculing those monks. I suggest you watch the video of Pa Auk Sayadaw at the archive.org link. You can then consider his non-verbal behavior objectively and without bias.

@RobertK Your linked post about Ven. Dhammapāla does not appear to contain any mention of light. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding, or I am missing something you wanted to express. I wonder whether you provided this redirection to stop further exploration of Pa Auk Sayadaw’s statements. Perhaps you hope that people will concentrate on the original teachings of the Buddha instead of exploring a controversial statement from Pa Auk Sayadaw? At the same time, I see that you replied with a prayer emoji to the emotional post written by gregk. I’m finding it hard to understand the reason for this apparent contradiction.

Apologies, I was working off my phone and linked the wrong thread. This one links to a explanation by Venerable Maggavihari which is more relevant I hope.

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Thanks for the reply. My point is that you don’t understand Sayadaw’s teaching and so you miss the points that he makes. Then you accuse him based on secondhand misunderstandings.

I studied under many teachers and I sandbox their teachings and I don’t blindly follow any of them. I just endeavour to understand the logic behind all the statements that they make. So in the context of each teacher I study with I endeavour to understand what they are saying without interpreting from the standpoint of other people’s explanations of the same thing.

We are all human we all make mistakes in reading stuff. So I have a model in my head of all the stuff that Sayadaw said when I was there and I translated for him so I know how he speaks and what the basis of his teaching is. You don’t know that.

So if you actually took the time to learn his theory and reasoning you would see that the point he makes is possibly true and possibly not. But it is reasoned and predicated on pali, commentaries and sub coms.

So having first hand experience of Sayadaw and having first hand experience at the time I helped to publish his books and having personally been with Sayadaw when we presented his books to Tipitaka sayadaws and scholar monks for review I know you don’t have sufficient information and your secondhand stories are incorrect.

Sayadaw’s books were never rejected or criticised by any of those scholars and none of them refuted anything he wrote.

The Censors didn’t want him to publish in Myanmar because by inference his writing was going to make other methods look bad. The compromise that was made was that we were allowed to publish the books for use within our own meditation centres. We ended up publishing 500 copies of his book “The path that leads to nibbana” in Taiwan and importing them back into Myanmar. That book is in Burmese and is 3500 A4 pages divided into 5 volumes.

So I try to be the most reasoned person in the house here. I value truth above all else. I personally disagree with Sayadaw on many things but I still love the way he put this incredibly complex system together and it is really fascinating.

On the other hand you make sweeping statements which I know are based on misunderstanding and secondhand knowledge and it is quiet laughable different to how to present an argument. So I would say to you. Make an effort to understand a teaching model before cherry picking and criticising the person teaching it. If you do make an effort even though you may not agree with the model presented you will understand a lot more about human intelligence and how it manifests.

I talked often with Pa Auk Sayadaw about all his teachers and his personal experiences studying with them. Pa Auk Sayadaw always expressed his gratitude for what he learnt from them. In particular as an example story I can mention Than Lyin Sayadaw who taught 4 elements meditation. That monk also wrote books criticising every method taught in Burma. Pa Auk Sayadaw read that book at the time he was at Mahasi Center and he had the intelligence to realise someone has to be wrong. Pa Auk Studied with U Pandita at Mahasi. He studied at Than Lyin, he studied at Kanni and a few others. In the end he went off on his own for 25 years and lived in a small monastery near Ye. He spent one rains with other smart young monks. One of those was the young Sitagu sayadaw. The other 2 also became big teachers in Burma. They all taught differently but they were all still friends and I met them all through Pa Auk Sayadaw.

So Pa auks 4 elements was based on what he learnt from Than Lyin Sayadaw which he was grateful to have learned. But Than Lyin method did not go past attaining upacara samadhi and then examining the heart base. Many of his students thought they were Arahantas. They even had an Arahanta puja festival. But Pa Auk sayadaw went on from there to learn more and in all these different methods he realised the nanas being described do not seem to fit the scheme in the visuddhimagga.

So that is enough for the moment. If you want to really understand the pa auk system I can explain the key points to you. After you know that you can criticise as much as you like, but don’t do it based on an incomplete understanding and unfairly criticise Sayadaw.

I don’t really have a horse in this, as I am not a follower of Mahasi or Pa Auk.

I kind of doubt though that Ven. Pa Auk said there is light in Nibbana - he is too versed in the texts for that. Your post is the first time I had heard this.

Greg wrote that

He brings up a very important point - my own experience is mainly with Thailand where this kind of reverence is almost cult like to famous monks.

The Buddha left the Dhamma as our teacher…The Teachings

I will have to go back to the light in Nibbana part. What Sayadaw says about that I need to look back up. I remember his talking about it but I wasn’t of interest to me way back then as there was a lot more inbetween that I needed to do and I will work that out when I get there is my attitude.

But from memory… Sayadaw would quite often make it clear that many methods think that everything stops when you experience nibbana and I have friends who have experienced that and it never really seemed right to me. They keep noting etc and then it all stops and after a while they become conscious again and there was a gap. They could even make a determination and it would go for longer. But just on a theoretical basis of abhidhamma when someone experiences the path and fruition they are still conscious. So I think sayadaw mentions the light because it is in the visuddhi magga or commentaries but the object of the consciousness is not light. So this is not a big deal for me. Look at the Buddhas description of his englightment in Dhammacakka pavattana sutta. “āloko udapādi” light arose.. Buddha didn’t stay everything stopped.

Idaṃ dukkha·nirodhaṃ ariyasacca’ nti: me, bhikkhave, pubbe an·anussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi. ‘Taṃ kho pan·idaṃ dukkha·nirodhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ sacchikātabba’ nti: me, bhikkhave, pubbe an·anussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi. ‘Taṃ kho pan·idaṃ dukkha·nirodhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ sacchikata’ nti: me, bhikkhave, pubbe an·anussutesu dhammesu cakkhuṃ udapādi, ñāṇaṃ udapādi, paññā udapādi, vijjā udapādi, āloko udapādi.

All that part is above my pay grade. But I am sure Sayadaw often gave reasons why what is claimed to be Nibbana by many people is simply “dropping into bhavanga” which is how he said it often.

yes right. I wonder if in the talk the Venerable Pa Auk was explaining this point, not meaning that there was actual physical light but there was still citta (magga and phala).

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I think it would be good if @jansen would confirm if he subscribes to the school that professes that “Nibbāna is something that cannot be known by the mind” and that it is “a blanking out - Nibbāna”. If that is true, what is the difference between that and Nirodhasamāpatti?

The Orthodox Theravāda view takes Abhidhamma extended citta enumeration list where Nibbāna is categorized in a similar way as jhāna, but instead of the paṭibhāganimitta as the object, Nibbāna is the object. This is what happens with “fruition attainment,” which is always repeatable.

The other issue is that some people believe that while Nibbāna should be a repeatable attainment, they never actively test this. The excuse is that if they attain Nibbāna again at that same level, they will become attached to it and never go further.

The “blank-out school,” often taught by Mahasi, teaches people to stay up late at night, stare at a clock, and if 20–30 minutes pass, then they have reached a “blank-out” state of mind, which is often referred to as Nibbāna. I heard about this and asked about this; it was confirmed by a South African lay teacher of the method who came to visit Na-Uyana.

It should be noted that the Thai Forest Tradition also has a tradition of having its monks stay up late at night. I’m not totally sure if they follow a similar methodology, but they definitely usually side against Abhidhamma, and also take on terms like “citta” that seem to be used in a different and new context not known elsewhere.

@gregk Your proximity to Pa Auk Sayadaw is noted and respected. We can, however, examine the actual recorded texts and public statements instead of relying on personal anecdotes or accusations of second-hand knowledge. To understand the scriptural basis, we may like to look at the quotation from the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta. The phrase “āloko udapādi” traditionally refers to the metaphorical light of wisdom dawning, and it does not denote a physical, visual light (obhasa) generated by cittaja rupa. @RobertK provided a very useful reference to Ven. Maggavihari. This explanation clearly defines alokasabhava as the mere absence of darkness and defilements.

@bksubhuti It is incorrect to assume my alignment with a “blank-out” school. The state of Nibbana is an ultimate reality known by the magga and phala citta, and this is entirely different from a lapse into bhavanga.

My concern remains focused on Pa Auk Sayadaw’s literal assertion of light and the subsequent mockery of other monks.

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Yes I can confirm my friend who was a major disciple of U Pandita and a good friend told me the same thing about checking against a clock.

According to the Abhidhamma, every consciousness generates mind-born matter called cittajarūpa. Just like in jhāna, and obviously in Nibbāna, a pure citta generates profoundly brilliant mind-born matter. In addition, there are utuja kalāpas that creates brilliant light as another byproduct.