Ledi Sayadaw’s note on momentariness

Abhidhamma
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I just thought to make a new topic rearding the Ledi Sayadaw’s note on momentariness.

I think this quote of Ledi Sayadaw is about the people who try to see the actual speed of impermanence.

I remember the Abhidhamma Analyzer Ven. Maggavihari (who has extensively learned Commentaries and Ledi Sayadaw’s manuals) discussed the following points.

  • "One doesn’t need to see the actual rupa kalapas. The requirement is understanding characteristics of dhammas."
  • "One doesn’t need to see the actual speed of impermanence. The requirement is understanding impermanence."
  • "One doesn’t need to see the actual present moment. No mind-moment can see itself. When we see the present moment, it has already been past. There are 3 types of present moments mentioned in Patisambhidamagga and 2 of 3 are considerably long present-moments."
  1. Khana paccuppanna (present instant)
  2. Santati paccuppanna (a generation of instants)
  3. Addha paccuppanna (present life)
  • The phrase “paccuppannam ca yo dhammam tattha tattha vipassati” found in Bhaddekaratta sutta does not only mean the 1st type of present moment.

Pārājikakaṇḍa-aṭṭhakathā:
Paccuppannañca nāmetaṃ khaṇapaccuppannaṃ, santatipaccuppannaṃ, addhāpaccuppannanti tividhaṃ. Tattha “Khaṇapaccuppannaṃ” nāma uppādajarābhaṅgasamaṅgi, taṃ voropetuṃ na sakkā. Kasmā? Sayameva nirujjhanato. “Santatipaccuppannaṃ” nāma sattaṭṭhajavanavāramattaṃ sabhāgasantativasena pavattitvā nirujjhanakaṃ, yāva vā uṇhato āgantvā ovarakaṃ pavisitvā nisinnassa andhakāraṃ hoti, sītato vā āgantvā ovarake nisinnassa yāva visabhāgautupātubhāvena purimako utu nappaṭippassambhati, etthantare “santatipaccuppanna”nti vuccati . Paṭisandhito pana yāva cuti, etaṃ “Addhāpaccuppannaṃ” nāma. Tadubhayampi voropetuṃ sakkā. Kathaṃ? Tasmiñhi upakkame kate laddhupakkamaṃ jīvitanavakaṃ nirujjhamānaṃ dubbalassa parihīnavegassa santānassa paccayo hoti. Tato santatipaccuppannaṃ vā addhāpaccuppannaṃ vā yathāparicchinnaṃ kālaṃ apatvā antarāva nirujjhati . Evaṃ tadubhayampi voropetuṃ sakkā, tasmā tadeva sandhāya “Santatiṃ vikopetī”ti idaṃ vuttanti veditabbaṃ.

My poor translation:
The Present (paccuppanna) is threefold as “instant-present”, “generational-present” and “extended-present”. Therein instant-present is in arising-decaying-ceasing; it can not be deprived. Why? Because it ceases by itself. Generational-present is seven Javana terms long and having existed as similar generation, it ceases; untill the darkness is present in the one who came from …

According to Patisambhidamagga, “the contemplation of Udaya vaya (arising and passing)” is not just noting the arising and passing.

Udaya is to be understood in terms of Paccayasamudaya (arising due to arising of causes) and the Nibbattilakkhana (Characteristic of arising) both.
There are 4 ways for Paccayasamudaya and 1 way for Nibbattilakkhana.
So 5 ways for Udaya and 5 ways for Vaya.

In order to see Udaya-vaya of Pancakkhanda, there are 50 ways to be concerned. (5*5 *2 = 50)

eg:
Udaya of Rupa:

  1. Avijjā samudayā rupa samudayo (arising of rupa by arising of Ignorance)
  2. Tanhā samudayā rupa samudayo (arising of rupa by arising of Craving)
  3. Kamma samudayā rupa samudayo (arising of rupa by arising of Kamma)
  4. Ahāra samudayā rupa samudayo (arising of rupa by arising of Nutriment)
  5. Nibbatti lakkhanā (the characteristic of arising)

Vaya of Rupa is also taken in the same way but replacing “Samudaya” with “Nirodha” and “Nibbatti” with “Vipariṇāma”.

For Vedana, Sanna and Sankhara, the 4th point becomes “Phassa”.

For Vinnana, the 4th point becomes “Namrupa”.

Paṭisambhidāmaggapāḷi - Udayabbayañāṇaniddesa:

Kathaṃ paccuppannānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipariṇāmānupassane paññā udayabbayānupassane ñāṇaṃ? Jātaṃ rūpaṃ paccuppannaṃ, tassa nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ udayo, vipariṇāmalakkhaṇaṃ vayo, anupassanā ñāṇaṃ. Jātā vedanā…pe… jātā saññā… jātā saṅkhārā… jātaṃ viññāṇaṃ… jātaṃ cakkhu…pe… jāto bhavo paccuppanno, tassa nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ udayo, vipariṇāmalakkhaṇaṃ vayo, anupassanā ñāṇaṃ.

Pañcannaṃ khandhānaṃ udayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, udayabbayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati? Pañcannaṃ khandhānaṃ udayaṃ passanto pañcavīsati lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto pañcavīsati lakkhaṇāni passati; udayabbayaṃ passanto paññāsa lakkhaṇāni passati.

Rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, udayabbayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati? Vedanākkhandhassa…pe… saññākkhandhassa…pe… saṅkhārakkhandhassa…pe… viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati, udayabbayaṃ passanto kati lakkhaṇāni passati? Rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto pañca lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto pañca lakkhaṇāni passati; udayabbayaṃ passanto dasa lakkhaṇāni passati. Vedanākkhandhassa…pe… saññākkhandhassa… saṅkhārakkhandhassa… viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto pañca lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto pañca lakkhaṇāni passati; udayabbayaṃ passanto dasa lakkhaṇāni passati.

Rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjāsamudayā rūpasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Taṇhāsamudayā rūpasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Kammasamudayā rūpasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Āhārasamudayā rūpasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ passantopi rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Rūpakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati.

Vayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjānirodhā rūpanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Taṇhānirodhā rūpanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Kammanirodhā rūpanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Āhāranirodhā rūpanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Vipariṇāmalakkhaṇaṃ passantopi rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Rūpakkhandhassa vayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati. Udayabbayaṃ passanto imāni dasa lakkhaṇāni passati.

Vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjāsamudayā vedanāsamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Taṇhāsamudayā vedanāsamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Kammasamudayā vedanāsamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Phassasamudayā vedanāsamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ passantopi vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Vedanākkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati.

Vayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjānirodhā vedanānirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Taṇhānirodhā vedanānirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Kammanirodhā vedanānirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Phassanirodhā vedanānirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Vipariṇāmalakkhaṇaṃ passantopi vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Vedanākkhandhassa vayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati. Udayabbayaṃ passanto imāni dasa lakkhaṇāni passati.

Saññākkhandhassa…pe… saṅkhārakkhandhassa…pe… viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjāsamudayā viññāṇasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Taṇhāsamudayā viññāṇasamudayotipaccayasamudayaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Kammasamudayā viññāṇasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Nāmarūpasamudayā viññāṇasamudayoti – paccayasamudayaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Nibbattilakkhaṇaṃ passantopi viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passati. Viññāṇakkhandhassa udayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati.

Vayaṃ passanto katamāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati? Avijjānirodhā viññāṇanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Taṇhānirodhā viññāṇanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Kammanirodhā viññāṇanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Nāmarūpanirodhā viññāṇanirodhoti – paccayanirodhaṭṭhena viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Vipariṇāmalakkhaṇaṃ passantopi viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passati. Viññāṇakkhandhassa vayaṃ passanto imāni pañca lakkhaṇāni passati. Udayabbayaṃ passanto imāni dasa lakkhaṇāni passati.

Pañcannaṃ khandhānaṃ udayaṃ passanto imāni pañcavīsati lakkhaṇāni passati, vayaṃ passanto imāni pañcavīsati lakkhaṇāni passati, udayabbayaṃ passanto imāni paññāsa lakkhaṇāni passati. Taṃ ñātaṭṭhena ñāṇaṃ, pajānanaṭṭhena paññā. Tena vuccati – “Paccuppannānaṃ dhammānaṃ vipariṇāmānupassane paññā udayabbayānupassane ñāṇaṃ”. Rūpakkhandho āhārasamudayo. Vedanā, saññā, saṅkhārā – tayo khandhā phassasamudayā. Viññāṇakkhandho nāmarūpasamudayo.

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My understanding is that we cannot actually see the particular moments, but we can see the bulks of moments (khandha paccuppanna) on a very subtle level, to the level where we realize there is no self - we see the basic mechanics of the processes - what arises that must pass, all experience is made up of short conditioned & impersonal moments like pictures (frames) that make up a seemingly continuous film.

We have already discussed the sharpness of mindfulness in a different post here in the Classical Theravada forum. I believe that it is possible to see the present moment, except that what we see is a bulk inside a bulk. Mindfulness is interlaced with the observed phenomena -

Present moment bulk one’s snippet:
mindfulness bulk one’s particle one - mind-phenomena bulk one’s particle one - mindfulness bulk one’s particle two - mind-phenomena bulk one’s particle two - mindfulness bulk one’s particle three - mind-phenomena bulk one’s particle three

After that follows the next moment bulk, bulk two’s snippet:
mindfulness bulk two’s particle one - mind-phenomena bulk two’s particle one - mindfulness bulk two’s particle two - mind-phenomena bulk two’s particle two - mindfulness bulk two’s particle three - mind-phenomena bulk two’s particle three

The Buddha never suggested that seeing the present “moment” is impossible. Except that the Buddha did not describe what “moment” is. From Majjhima Nikaya several suttas, such as the Bhaddekaratta Sutta (MN 131), we can see that being in the present moment is of utmost importance. The wrong view that we should observe the past moment has been a huge obstacle to meditation students.

We can look at the progressive instruction from the Buddha, which clearly shows us that the Buddha trains His students to be in the present moment (and not otherwise). The training is gradual, probably because it is expected that some will come up with this non-Dhamma idea that observing the present moment is not possible. According to Ganakamoggallana Sutta, MN 107, the Buddha first teaches the student to observe the postures and activities in the present moment. So, the student observes standing up during standing up, sitting down during sitting down, etc. Later the Buddha teaches him to observe breath - breathing in during breathing in, breathing out during breathing out.

It is ridiculous to suggest we observe breathing out when we are breathing in or observe breathing in when we are breathing out. In the same way, thinking we observe the past mind should be preposterous. We are always in the present moment and no other way.

But of course, I understand that the concept of “mental bulk” is not directly mentioned by the Buddha. My own experience says that I can observe the present moment vaguely and sharply. As I meditate, my mindfulness gets sharper and sharper, and the bulks that I can distinguish become smaller and smaller. When I do not meditate, the bulks are bigger. The smaller is the bulk, the sharper and clearer is the recognition of the present situation. When the bulks are big, there is more delusion and vagueness of my mindfulness.

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I believe that sutta mentions sitting and attaining the different jhānas… Therefore we can assume that the your example of present moment with the breath does not apply. This is because this sutta mentions breath as it pertains to the attainment of jhāna and the practice of vipassana on real objects because paññatti objects are object of jhāna and not vipassana objects.

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That’s an interesting point. Taking the Buddha’s decision that ānāpānassati represents all four satipaṭṭhānas as actually not at all talking about vipassana. :thinking:

But I understand your view - the Buddha explained that breath is to be observed as the 42nd part of the body, as the element of air (e.g., in MN 62 Mahārāhulovāda Sutta).

My point however was not at all related to vipassanā or samatha nature of breath. I have shown that the Buddha lead His students in observing the present moment already from the beginning of their practice. As they gradually trained in observing the present moment, they went through practices that did not require as much sharp mindfulness to practices that required it sharper and sharper.

The idea that we do not need to be in the present moment and that we can consider past and the future as well has been already very strictly rejected by the leading monks of Myanmar. A famous monk you know of was prohibited to publish his books just because he suggested that considering Dependent Origination with its past and future segments is a suitable meditation practice. The prohibition was based on the fact that observing the past and future is discouraged by the Buddha in, specifically, Bhaddekaratta Sutta. Or so I was told by one of the members of the committee that issued the prohibition.

:sun_with_face:

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A great topic. Ledi Sayadaw is correct in this case, IMO. He states
As for the exact nature, i.e., the swiftness, of mental phenomena, the understanding of which is the domain of the wisdom of the All-knowing Buddha, one has to accept the authority of the scriptures. Any talk about contemplating the three characteristics of mental phenomena is mere humbug. It is never based on practice, but only on hearsay from the scriptures. If someone were to try it, it would be a far cry from insight

So we hear of people thinking that because they feel ’ bodily vibrations’ that this is experiencing the actual rise and fall of the the elements…

We know that rise and fall is only known after the first stage of vipassana , and even that stage must be like a flash when the mind -door shows itself clearly andcnama is understood as differentfrom rupa… And so anatta.

For the present moment: during the development of satipatthana the processes that understand an element know the nimitta of the reality-. So the actual reality has just fallen away but we still consider it as present moment.

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