Do the suttas speak of bhavaïga-consciousness in the heart to move from the first jhâna to the second jhâna?

General Theravada topics
12

Second point. According to Vipassanā method found in Visuddhimagga the yogi discern each materiality present in rūpa kalāpas. It implies to sea rūpa kalāpa as well.

Here the beginning of the nāmarūpapariggaha chapter: "athassa yāthāvasarasalakkhaṇato āvibhūtāsu dhātūsu kammasamuṭṭhānamhi tāva kese “catasso dhātuyo, vaṇṇo, gandho, raso, ojā, jīvitaṃ, kāyappasādo"ti evaṃ kāyadasakavasena dasa rūpāni (…)”

“Then when the elements have become clear with their function and characteristics the elements in the kamma produced (materiality) of the hair firstly " four elements, colour, smell, taste, nutritive essence, life faculty, bodily sensitivity, thus the 10 materiality in the bodily decad (kalāpa) (…)”

Then in this chapter of the delimitation of the materiality Visuddhimagga describes each rūpa in each kalāpa and where it is located.
It is repeatedly mentioned that these rūpas should be seen by the yogi, using different words. Obviously the meaning is one discern these rūpa inside kalāpas.

4 Likes
13

Third point: Jhāna.

Please where do you see any contradiction or difference between the Jhāna as teached in Visuddhimagga and practiced in Pa Auk?
If there is a precise point let’s discuss about it.
Actually, in the Samādhi also, Pa Auk method is the deepest and the most comprehensive Inthe world .
The Pa Auk method teaches the 4 rupāvacara jhāna and arūpavacara jhāna , with all meditation objects. The Pañca vasī, five masteries, with all meditation objects that allows Jhāna Attainments are teached.
Also, some Supernormal Knowledge (Abhiññas) are attained naturally by certains yogis after Jhāna or are teached after Vipassanā (not before).
If the Samādhi would be wrong they would not be able to get some abilities such as Dibba Cakkhu, Divine Eye. In Pa Auk and related monasteries it is found in certain capable Yogis.

4 Likes
14

Next point: Paticca samuppāda, and the Vipassanā Knowledge associated with, called kankhāvitaraṇavisuddhi or Paccayapariggaha ñāṇa.
The whole Visuddhimagga and Commentaries speak only the Paticca Samuppāda as a three periods process, past present and future lives.
In the chapter of kankhāvitaraṇavisuddhi it is explained in various ways how a Yogi discern cuti and patisandhi citta (death and rebirth consciousness).

“tassevaṃ kammavaṭṭavipākavaṭṭavasena nāmarūpassa paccayapariggahaṃ katvā tīsu addhāsu pahīnavicikicchassa sabbe atītānāgatapaccuppannadhammā cutipaṭisandhivasena viditā honti, sāssa hoti ñātapariññā.”

" When he has understood the round of kamma and the round of kamma result in this way, having discerned the mentality and materiality he abandons the three kind of doubts about past future and present death and rebirth, this is the full Understanding of the known".

And so on. Again and again Visuddhimagga repeats it in various ways.
Please read it.
Not only that, but Paticca Samuppāda has never been explained in the texts as one-life process, either in Mūla or Atthakathā, therefore how it’s discernment would be only related to one life process?
This modern shortcut when it comes to practice is like that : " let’s discern Paticca Samuppāda in present only, the knowledge of past and future is obtained by inference" this does not find support in the texts in any way. And it does not match the fundamentals of Buddha’ s Teachings found in Pāḷi Texts.
That is Paticca samuppāda always implies 3 separated time periods.

3 Likes
15

There are many references, Bhante.
Just this quote in the Visuddhimagga:

yathā ca rūpaṃ sammasantena rūpassa, evaṃ arūpaṃ sammasantenapi arūpassa nibbatti passitabbā. sā ca kho ekāsīti lokiyacittuppādavaseneva.seyyathidaṃ – idañhi arūpaṃ nāma purimabhave āyūhitakammavasena paṭisandhiyaṃ tāva ekūnavīsaticittuppādappabhedaṃ nibbattati. nibbattanākāro panassa paṭiccasamuppādaniddese vuttanayeneva veditabbo. tadeva paṭisandhicittassa anantaracittato paṭṭhāya bhavaṅgavasena, āyupariyosāne cutivasena. yaṃ tattha kāmāvacaraṃ, taṃ chasu dvāresu balavārammaṇe tadārammaṇavasena.pavatte pana asambhinnattā cakkhussa āpāthagatattā rūpānaṃ ālokasannissitaṃ manasikārahetukaṃ cakkhuviññāṇaṃ nibbattati saddhiṃ sampayuttadhammehi. cakkhupasādassa hi ṭhitikkhaṇe ṭhitippattameva rūpaṃ cakkhuṃ ghaṭṭeti. tasmiṃ ghaṭṭite dvikkhattuṃ bhavaṅgaṃ uppajjitvā nirujjhati. tato tasmiṃyeva ārammaṇe kiriyamanodhātu āvajjanakiccaṃ sādhayamānā uppajjati. tadanantaraṃ tadeva rūpaṃ passamānaṃ kusalavipākaṃ akusalavipākaṃ vā cakkhuviññāṇaṃ. tato tato paraṃ kāmāvacarakusalākusalakiriyacittesu ekaṃ vā upekkhāsahagatāhetukaṃ cittaṃ pañca satta vā javanāni. tato kāmāvacarasattānaṃ ekādasasu tadārammaṇacittesu javanānurūpaṃ yaṃkiñci tadārammaṇanti. esa nayo sesadvāresupi. manodvāre pana mahaggatacittānipi uppajjantīti. evaṃ chasu dvāresu arūpassa nibbatti passitabbā. evañhi arūpassa nibbattiṃ passanto kālena arūpaṃ sammasati nāma.evaṃ kālena rūpaṃ kālena arūpaṃ sammasitvāpi tilakkhaṇaṃ āropetvā anukkamena paṭipajjamāno eko paññābhāvanaṃ sampādeti.

And just as one should see the generation of the materiality, in the same way the generation of the immaterial (i. e mentality) should be seen. That is the 81 mundane consciousnessess(…) That same as life continuum as well, starting from consciousness next to rebirth linking, and as death consciousness as the termination of the life span.(…) This is how the occurence of the immaterial should be seen in the 6 doors.
One who sees the generation of the immaterial thus is said to comprehend to material at time. That is how, having comprehended the materiaity at time and the immateriality he applies the three characteristics successively, accomplishing the development of wisdom".

As I have only limited time I have written some limited translation. It is at the chapter
“arūpanibbattipassanākārakathā”, describing on how the immaterial states based on the material bases (vatthu) are discerned and seen as anicca dukkha and anatta.
Even though the method is detailed for the eye door only for the sake of being concise, still it implies bhavaṅga as well, based on hadayavatthu.
It is still described in other places by different ways.

Sorry to give only short answer without full translation but my time is limited :pray::sunrise_over_mountains:

Respectfully :pray::innocent:

4 Likes
16

Visuddhimagga

note 48 XVII Bhadantácariya Buddhaghosa
says:

This structure of conditions is present not only in (a continuity period consisting **
** of) multiple consciousnesses but also in each single consciousness as well” (Vibh-a
199–200).Also the Patisambhidámagga gives five expositions, **four describing **
dependent origination in one life, the fifth being made to present a special inductive **
> generalization to extend what is observable in this life (the fact that consciousness is

always preceded by consciousness, cf. this Ch. §83f.—i.e. that it always has a past and
is inconceivable without one) back beyond birth, and (since craving and ignorance
ensure its expected continuance) on after death. There are, besides, various other,
differing applications indicated by the variant forms given in the suttas themselves.

Even in the suttas we see this: Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya:

The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin of repeated
birth and
passing away of beings in this world. What, monks, is the origin of
beings?
On account of the eye base and visible object, eye consciousness
arises.
Contact (phassa) is the conjunction of the three; through contact,
feeling
arises; through feeling desire arises; through desire attachment
(upadana)
arises; through attachment bhava (process of becoming) arises;
through
becoming birth arises; through birth decay and DEATH, SORROW,
lamentation,
pain, grief and despair…The sutta repeats for ear, nose, tongue,
body
and mind)>

So the point of the teaching is to see that there is no self anywhere in this round.

SN 35.154
Cakkhundriye ce, bhikkhu, udayabbayānupassī viharanto
If, bhikkhu, while one dwells contemplating rise and fall in the eye faculty
SN 35.72
Sādhu, bhikkhu, ettha ca te, bhikkhu, cakkhu ‘netaṃ mama, nesohamasmi na meso attā’ti evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṃ bhavissati.
Good, bhikkhu! And here, bhikkhu, you should clearly see the eye as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

4 Likes
17

Moneyya-Bhante:

Brightness is described as most of the other Vipassanupakkilesa (Subdefilements of insight) as a normal and necessary phenomenon, but at a certain stage it becomes sub defilement if the yogi clings to it and interpret it wrongly.

Exactly. It is a defilement of vipassana. However, Pa Auk Sayadaw explains it as the necessary factor whenever one enters phalasamāpatti:

“The element of Nibbāna is so excellent, that a phenomenon more shining, a phenomenon more radiating, a phenomenon more pure, clear(er) phenomenon does not exist in the world. Nibbāna is the most radiating-shining phenomenon. Thus (the Commentary) explains. /But it does not explain it so. See this portion transcribed and translated to English here. (Ashin Saraṇa)/ So, in Nibbāna, regarding the presence of the color of light, quite a lot of the modern meditation masters do not want to agree. Why they don’t want to agree? There is a reason. What reason? After meditating very hard, (they) get so tired, that even while sitting (they) fall asleep. When they fall asleep, (they) do not dream. Bhavaṅga (moments of unconscious life-continuum) happen in succession, and because (the moments) of bhavaṅga happened, (they) abruptly awake from the bhavaṅga and (it) is like waking up from being asleep. So, there he (the meditation master) is sleeping, hence (he) doesn’t encounter any light.”

Moneyya-Bhante:

“When he has understood the round of kamma and the round of kamma result in this way, having discerned the mentality and materiality he abandons the three kind of doubts about past future and present death and rebirth, this is the full Understanding of the known”.

It is true that the bodhisatta Gotama first saw his past lives, then the conditional nature of kamma-vipāka in past & present lives of other beings, and then only He became a Buddha. However, we do not hear about this ever whenever someone becomes a Stream-Enterer or a Once-Returner. Only Anagami and Arahants get these psychic powers (and some of them don’t get them anyway).

Moneyya-Bhante:

“And just as one should see the generation of the materiality, in the same way the generation of the immaterial (i. e mentality) should be seen. That is the 81 mundane consciousnessess(…) That same as life continuum as well, starting from consciousness next to rebirth linking, and as death consciousness as the termination of the life span.(…) This is how the occurence of the immaterial should be seen in the 6 doors.”

Thank you, this is very helpful. I remember, however, that this process can be known to this level only by the Buddha. We get that information in Majjhima Nikāya 12. Mahāsīhanāda Sutta Commentary, explained further in detail by the relevant Sub-Commentary:

“Evaṃ santepi tesaṃ vāro paññāyatīti tesaṃ bhikkhūnaṃ ‘‘ayaṃ paṭhamaṃ pucchati, ayaṃ dutiya’’ntiādinā pucchanavāro tādisassa paññavato paññāyati sukhumassa antarassa labbhanato. Buddhānaṃ pana vāroti īdise ṭhāne buddhānaṃ desanāvāro aññesaṃ napaññāyanato buddhānaṃyeva paññāyati. Idāni tameva paññāyanataṃ yuttito dassento ‘‘vidatthicaturaṅgulachāya’’ntiādimāha. Accharāsaṅghāṭamatte khaṇe aneka-koṭisahassa-cittapavattisambhavato ‘‘vidatthicaturaṅgulachāyaṃ atikkamanato puretaraṃyeva bhagavā…pe… kathetī’’ti vatvā tato lahutarāpi satthu desanāpavatti atthevāti dassento ‘‘tiṭṭhantu vā tāva ete’’tiādimāha.” (MNṬ 12. Mahāsīhanādasuttavaṇṇanā, MM MNṬ 2.39)

It talks about time and the Buddha’s perception of time, which others cannot perceive. There is specifically mentioned the several thousands of ten-millions (several tens of billions) of moments that happen within a snap of fingers and that only the Buddha can perceive them. (As soon as our project for MNA starts to get rolling, we will surely soon get to translate Sub-Commentaries like this word-by-word as well.)

So, the idea of Visuddhimagga that a meditator (who is not a Buddha) can see the citta-vīthi is not acceptable. Only the Buddha can see citta-vīthi. It is also the reason why meditators are supposed to see the 4 aggregates of mind arising simultaneously and not in order, because only the Buddha can see them arising in order. I think Ledi Sayadaw was also very outspoken about the impossible dream to see all moments of mind, but we discussed this elsewhere here in the Clasical Theravada forum.

4 Likes
18

Ñāṇa (Paññā) also is sub defilement of insight, as well as very important factors.
It becomes defilements of insight only when the meditator feels he has already attained Magga Phala because of it and come to wrong conclusion. Please read this chapter Bhante, you will understand the nature of Vipassanupakkilesa.

Now āloka is cittajjarūpa ( mind born materiality) the colour in these rūpas becomes bright because of the powerful kusala citta. Therefore it is there at Upacāra, Jhāna, Vipassanā and even more with powerful consciousness such as Phala Samāpatti.

Okay, that is a point where many people get misleaded.
In Vipassanā, the Yogi is able to see past and future phenomena. The same vīthi he can focus again and again in various ways. This is the reason why it is possible to know precisely these things. With one object many vīthi arise, bit with the power of meditation he sees again and again the next citta, and then again comes back to see the next citta, and so on.
What is not possible is to know one vīthi without break in one sequence.

4 Likes
19

Dear venerable sir, please, kindly provide the reference to
(a) any Pali scripture that suggests we observe specifically the past (such as the past cittavithi) as a meditation practice and help me understand why did the Buddha suggested to not observe the past in several Majjhima Nikaya suttas, such as MN 131. Bhaddekaratta Sutta.
(b) any Pali scripture which specifically says that anyone who enters phala samāpatti always upon entry must experience light.

Thank you very much for your explanations and references so far. :sun_with_face:

4 Likes
20

Okasa Dear Bhante, Visuddhimagga doesn’t consider the mentioned light as “light of wisdom” which is mentioned in the Suttas. It is mentioned as just a light which is a defilement for Vipassana.

According to the classical interpretation of Visuddhimagga, “discern” means “understand” (discern by wisdom). It doesn’t necessitate a “seeing by a light of mind”, but to see by wisdom. Mind and wisdom are two different Paramatthas which have two different functions.

Yes, elements become clear in terms of their function and characteristics. (aka “understanding elements”)

Any kind of mental energy like samadhi/light etc (if they are not hallucinations) can be a support for wisdom to understand elements, but mind or other Cetasikas can’t do the function of Wisdom.

Bhante, it was about whether many of the Paauk yogis’ attainments are real or not.

We and many other scholars and Theros have met and seen many of Paauk and Nauyana accepted Kammatthanacariyas and senior yogis who claim attainments, but still taking medicine for mental instabilities and disorders. They believe that it is not an indicator of invalidity of many of their superhuman attainments.

And many bad guys and the monks whom we know well, could become accepted attainers of Paauk and Nauyana.

One is ex-soldier of special forces who can sit many hours forcefully due to his SF training. One decade back, he was regarded as one of the best yogis of Paauk. Even he himself has later said that he doesn’t believe his attainments.

Another one is a famous blackmagic-monk who maintained a monastery for blackmagic services in Galle area. Later he was captured by the police with the accusations of female-abuse, after his behavior was revealed by a famous FM radio channel. He was believed to be an Abhinna attained monk by pauk and nauyana including even Venerable Ariyananda, the head monk of Nauyana. Just some months before he was captured by the police, Ven. Ariyannanda said in his public speech at the Late Mahathero’s funeral that “one of the Abhinna attained monk told him that the Mahathero was reborn in Tusita heaven”. This monk is that notorious monk.

One decade back, the Nauyana Kammattana-acariya for lay people was a lunatic monk who was sending to mental-hospital time to time. Whenever he was returning from the mental hospital Ven. Ariyananda repeatedly appoints him again to the position of Kammatthana-acariya.

During the last decade, the main two Nauyana Kammatthana-acariyas (for the monks) were said to be Taking medicine for mental instabilities like depression while continuing giving Kammatthana. They don’t believe it is an obstacle to attainments and say those disseases are the attacks of Mara.

There are many other paauk attainers that we know as well. They are either mentally unstable or directly lunatic or at least childish. But many of them are good monks in terms of behaviour.

The Nauyana nuns (as well as pauk nuns I guess) always have more superhuman attainments than male monks. The critics say the more one is mentally weak (not morally) the more he will be attained modern attainments. This criticism is not only about paauk. The reason they say is that the mentally-weak people are vulnerable to see what they believe as happenning real in meditation.

Some monks said that his friend monks (of nauyana and paauk) can’t see the body-parts that they have not previously seen by physical eye, when they are doing 32parts meditation using the samadhi-light they believe. Yet they could see the body-parts that they have seen previously atleast in pictures. So the critics say it is a mental imagination.

One of the Abhidhamma scholar thero (ordained in Nauyana) once said, I believe the Paauk attainments are conceptual.

Because of such observations, many paauk and nauyana monks who initially had faith in Visuddhimagga have gone to Non-Classical teachers (like EBT), thinking that Visuddhimagga is wrong. But they don’t know the classical scholars’ approach to Visuddhimagga is different.

But many of us still respect Paauk because of their classical bent, methodical meditation, monk life and respect for sila-samadhi-panna.

2 Likes
21

Thank you for this vital information.

Please, what books do you recommend I read to understand the doctrine and practices of the classical scholars you endorse? Thank you in advance.

2 Likes
22

[quote=“ekocare, post:20, topic:790”]
One decade

He got his disease later. But his brother who is not a yogi has also this kind of disease. Kamma and genetic related problems.

Ok you are mentioning the weaknesses only.
It is true that to attain Jhāna does not make one free from kamma. One can still later disrobe, fall physically or mentally ill.

Unfortunately these things are not related to Pa Auk meditators only.
Many suicides and mental problems among the Venerabls in the others traditions.
Like this Ven following EBT, believing he was Sotapanna he killed himself…

But you are not mentioning the many good Venerables who have Jhāna Vipassanā Ñāna and are faring well… It is not fare I think.

4 Likes
23

Thanks for your polite interventions Bhante :pray::slightly_smiling_face:
Sure bhante. The Anatta Lakkhaṇa Sutta which specifically instruct to see any rūpa, vedanā, sañña, saṅkhārā viññāṇa, past present future far near and so on as anicca, dukkha and anatta. This implies all cittas and cetasikas in the Vīthis.

The Buddha said to not observe the past and future as normal conceptual think that bring defilements. It is different from Vipassanā Ñāna. :innocent:
In the same way even present objects can be a base for defilements.

3 Likes
24

Bhante it is not the main point of Phala Samāpatti. Because there is already light even from a bit of Samādhi, nothing to say about Vipassanā Ñāṇa. So the important point about Phala Samāpatti such as Jhāna factors , Pañca Vasī and so on are mentioned mainly.

3 Likes
25

Orthodox Theravada Authority Precedence as mentioned in the Commentary:

  1. Sutta (Tipitaka in Commentarial interpretation)
  2. Suttanuloma (Mahapadesas)
  3. Acariyavada (Commentary)
  4. Attanomati (Personal opinion, including other teachers’)

For a brief understanding about the every main aspect of the Classical Position, we are advised to study at least the Visuddhimagga.

In order to understand the last chapters of Visuddhimagga, learning Abhidhammatthasangaha beforehand might be needed.

Visuddhimagga, Matikaatthakatha and Abhidhammatthasangaha are the classically recommended summaries of Sutta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma pitakas respectively.

Wish you best of luck with Buddhism.

Bhante,
It demands one of the following points.

  1. Innate lunatics are successful in Paauk method up to the level of Kammatthanacariya.
    OR
  2. Normal monks become lunatic after being successful in Paauk method.
    OR
  3. Being lunatic (due to kamma or some other reason) doesn’t affect Paauk jhanas and the level of Kammatthanacariya.
    OR
  4. The successful Paauk Kammatthanacariyas (like the abbot of Nauyana) believe that lunatics are qualified to bear the (very sensitive) position of Kammatthannacariya.
    OR
  5. Paauk method is dangerous.
    OR
  6. Some or many Paauk Kammatthanacariyas are mentally ill and the other Kammatthanacariyas who knowingly appoint them are not sensible and dangerous.

I think it is very sensitive.

The problem is simultaneous existence of Jhana and Mental illness. Later illnesses can be different.

Yes it is true.

I know many good venerables from Paauk and Naauyana. But how can we endorse their attainments while having the above mentioned observations in this thread.

If they seem like having genuine jhana, many people are willing to join with. The problem is the above mentioned sensible observations.

Still we can praise their Sila, respect of samadhi and classical bent. And we did it many times.

Vandami.

2 Likes
26

Thank you very much for your help and encouragement. Good luck to you too.

2 Likes
27

You seem to disagree with Pa-Auk’s version of the jhânas. But do you at least think that the “jhanas” taught by Pa-Auk have a concentration powerful enough to allow the meditator to know whether his perceptions are creations imagined by his mind?

If so, it seems to me that we can say that Beth Upton (Pa-Auk’s former nun) directly perceived her previous lives, since she explains that she used the power of the fourth jhâna concentration to perceive her past lives (and therefore knew that her perception of her past lives was not an imagination).
What do you think?

1 Like
28

Based on our longtime observations, we can’t endorse the claims of Paauk as well as many other modern methods’ attainments.

But we can’t point out a person and say this person definitely doesn’t have jhanas, because it is not good and wise.

What we generally say is it is hard for us to believe that many of them have jhanas because we see many other weaknesses in them which seem not compatible with jhanas.

According to the classical books, we have understood jhanas as very stable type of mind which is very hard to achieve.

There is the space for such attainments but we can’t readily believe the claims without seeing a reasonable clue.

Some are said to be having

  • Little samadhis
  • Pure and akusala-less bhavanga continuum
  • Imaginations

while misrecognizing them as Jhanas.

Though some of the following measures might be hard to check in some rare persons, such indicators/clues of attainers are to be "
visible to the wise" in most cases (even in most times of daily life), as we have understood jhanas.

  • No sensual desires of any form. (no atleast indirect handling of money, different passions or expectations for even allowed things, kama for titles or acceptance or power … etc)
  • No anger of any form. (no agitations, criticisms, complains etc.)
  • No other Nivaranas (no sloth,torpor, restlessness, worries …etc)
  • Higher Calmness of bodily and verbal behaviour. (unless in rare cases)
  • Pure Sila. (can be checked only by longtime association)
  • Higher mental stability. (absence of atleast temporary stress/depression and like)
  • Higher wisdom. (can be checked only by longtime discussions) (absence of calm childishness and calm dullness)
  • Not deviating from the Classical interpretation of Jhanas.
  • Other related virtues (saddha, viriya, sati, honesty etc) (and sometimes even generosity, metta etc though they are not direct measures)
2 Likes
29

Thank you very much.

However, I thought that a person who had attained the jhanas could very well, in everyday life, be a restless person, mean, without wisdom, etc… For example, it seemed to me that some people (like Devadatta) had attained jhanas and psychic powers, but were also proud and haughty.

I didn’t know that attaining the jhanas necessarily meant having all the qualities you mention.

2 Likes
30

There was a monk from Nauyana who claimed jhana attainments and said the same thing (as you thought). Later he was revealed to be a lunatic and years later he had been sent to the mental hospital by force by the other monks of the monastery.

Since then the friend monks of him started not to believe in the idea you thought.

Once ven. Maggavihari at IIT preached that the jhana attainers have to protect the “Nimitta” even when they are not in jhanas. Otherwise they loose the jhana.

It says that Devadatta lost his jhanas after akusalas developed in him.

Very few Arahants like the Venerable Pilindiwaccha have shown some behaviours which are perceived as akusala but The Blessed One said that those were just the remains of their past Kilesa-habbits (vasana).

Even though there might be such hard cases, those seem to be rare.

Those are explicit and implicit derivations from Sutta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma.
Explicit:
Panca nivarana explanations, Jhana factors explanations, Sila explanations, Sattavisuddhi explanations
Implicit:
Sattajatila sutta, Panna of Sila and Panna of Jhana, other implicit explanations and common sense.

2 Likes
31

Thank you very much

1 Like