How to ordain and last long in the monk life?

Hello everyone,

What can we do to remove attachment to the household life and permanently ordain as a monk? I do want to ordain one day if I become more knowledgeable about the scriptures and have enough support.

At first, I thought as a lay person, I might be able to do more dana, but I would also be able to do dana even if I ordain as a monk.

I think one of the most important thing is to have places where I could stay. If it’s easy to travel and there are places to stay, I think I could last long if I ordain as a monk.

Find a place which is harmonious and has good vinaya. Support for travel is a luxury, don’t expect such things. One shouldn’t have travel lust as a monk.

Monasteries are places where monks stay, I don’t understand your saying “if there are places to stay”, unless you never heard of such a thing as monasteries before.

One shouldn’t delay ordination. Learning can be done as a monk. The desire to go forth is impermanent, go forth now while it’s still there.

Without more details, I dunno what you’re attached to in the household life.

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Travel is an obsticle to meditation and progress as mentioned in the visuddhimagga.

Ten Impediments

A dwelling, family, and gain,
A class, and building too as fifth,
And travel, kin, affliction, books,
And supernormal powers: ten.
page 87 vsm

    1. Travel is going on a journey. If someone is expected to give the going forth somewhere else, or if some requisite is obtainable there and he cannot rest content without getting it [that will be an impediment; for] even if he goes into the forest to do the ascetic’s duties, he will find it hard to get rid of thoughts about the journey. So one in this position should apply himself to the ascetic’s duties after he has done the journey and transacted the business.

Ajahn Jayasaro told me before I left WPN for Pa-Auk. “Stay at one place for at least 2 years otherwise you will disrobe.” However, you really should stay much longer at one place. The above advice is the best… pick a place that follows vinaya and harmonious. You should ordain at the best possible place (Why go elsewhere?). You should do just as you believe you should follow the best religion. (Why go elsewhere?)

Best wishes on your journey. It took me a long time to ordain. It might take you some time as well.

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That’s scary, longest I have stayed at one place since I went forth almost 4 years ago is 10 months at Na Uyana. I should ask my teacher for less travelling. I also prefer to stay at one place, get my daily routine settled down rather than having to readjust every few months and the readjustment period can be a few months itself.

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Are you leaving due to dissatisfaction on your own? Do you keep your base with your teacher? That could be different if your teacher sends you to different places.

That is why I don’t recommend Malaysia. Visas are not possible long term. Only one monk is allowed per monastery legally. I don’t like what some monasteries do in order to have multiple monks in one monastery. Try to find a new base that is long term, legal, and supportive to the happiness and satisfaction of your monk life.

Keeping a “whatsapp preceptor” is silly. Calling a whatsapp preceptor a base is not so good. It seems you say that you are the one asking and he gives permission. What else can he do or say? However, it would be good if he advised you to find a place that suits your needs. He should know all the places and pick on that is suitable for you.

I think you misunderstood. Both of the monasteries I mentioned above are in Malaysia. I am Malaysian. There’s no visa issue. My preceptor is likely just wanting to maintain a good relationship between the monasteries and not seem like trying to take away the novice monk of an another monk.

The maintaining good relations thing has some nuances to it. My preceptor is from Austria, so taking over to run a Malaysian monastery, he wants it so that Malaysian monks can train in SBS and go back to where they come from instead of appearing like SBS is draining away the monks to stay at SBS. But it’s more like a training centre where other monasteries in Malaysia can be confident to send their monks to SBS just for some training and not having to worry about losing their monks to SBS. I am pretty tired personally of this travelling, and would rather stay longer in SBS. Anyway, I am the first test case of this category.

Is this in Vinaya? I thought the norm is that monks travel from place to place anyway?

I’m referencing the immigration and visa laws.

One should stay with a preceptor or proper nissaya teacher until Nissaya Muktaka is finished. This is vinaya. One needs to get permission from the preceptor to go to another place and show that he will go to a proper place with a proper teacher. He should not let him go if there is no proper teacher. Is your preceptor properly qualified according to vinaya to be a preceptor. I highly doubt it, but it is rarely practiced (even though it does not negate the rule). The ordination is still valid.

I’m sure if you asked to stay at sbs you could stay there, especially if you ordained there. Furthermore, there are no visa issues for you. However, I’m not sure an ebt-sbs is the best place for classical theravadans.

Getting tired of moving from place to place might be part of the reverse psychology training against travel. Maybe to get it out of your system. But one problem is, that you don’t have a settling nature to begin with. You will likely want to leave within a 10 month period, if that is the longest you have stayed in one place. When I first ordained at pa-auk in 2001, one was not allowed to travel at all. It was against the pa-auk visa permission policies. There were 7 checkpoints from Mawlamyine to Yangon and you needed a good reason to go. You needed a special letter from the monastery. If you didn’t have that letter, Sayadawgyi would get a call from the checkpoint area and then Sayadawgyi would complain to me (and others) about who was breaking the rules. I didn’t travel to Bagan until 2016 even though I ordained in 2001. I finally got the courage to ask for permission and brought a senior local pa-auk monk with me as a bargaining piece to get permission.

Hello Venerable Sirs,
Thank for your answers

I mean, additional dwelling places outside of monasteries.

Yes, Venerable Sir. I think I could just ordain at Pa Auk Pyin Oo Lwin and stay there for the rest of my life. However, I’m scared that I might start having thoughts of disrobing.

In theory this is true. However it’s very hard for a layperson to know what is best. There also has to be some level of “good enough for the next five years” too. Basically you need a place that will give the training and support to be a monk in different situations.

Do you have actual information about the situation?

7 posts were split to a new topic: Requirements for Freedom From Nissaya and Preceptor

@bksubhuti Given the recent news of civil war, deaths, and floods, I’m concerned about the safety of westerners traveling to Pa Auk Pyin Oo Lwin for ordination. Can you provide an update on the current situation?

Pyin oo lwin is 3000 feet up. that is why it is a cold climate there.
There is shelling in Pyin Oo Lwin somewhere, but I guess the locals are numb to it. The monastery is 30 minutes from pyin oo lwin city towards mandalay. I think it is near a military camp with a stronger presence.

My friend told me he is planning to stay. He has been there for quite a while… I think over 5 years. He has no plans to leave.

If you go, it is best to fly to Mandalay to avoid overland roads. You can fly to Mandalay from Bangkok.

Nevertheless you must decide at your own risk.

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Thank you for the information, Bhante!

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Getting an early start is one of the best things you can do. That way, you can make progress before living too much of your adult life while indulging strongly in sense pleasures in the lay world. Not doing that will allow them to become much more deeply rooted. If you don’t become a monk in your 20s, you will get very used to indulging in sex, alcohol, food, relaxation, fitting in at the workplace, etc., and those types of things will become habitual.

Furthermore, you won’t really understand the defilements unless you become a bhikkhu or live as an eight-precept layperson in a monastic-type setting for some time (at least a few months). That is because you don’t fully come face to face with them without doing so, and you cannot understand the level of sway that they actually hold over your mind unless you do. So, without facing them, you don’t fully understand them, and without fully understanding them, you have a diminishing chance of uprooting them.

Therefore, I recommend that even if you can’t become a monk, that you try to live at a monastery under the eight precepts for some time (at least 6 months or so) in your early 20s, and try to keep the rules perfectly for that time (and before), and practice meditation while there (particularly to reduce whatever your largest defilement is as stated in the Visuddhimagga by the Venerable Buddhaghosa, and to reflect on the sense bases, aggregates, elements etc., in order to develop wisdom, also as stated in the VsM).

The point I made above about understanding the defilements fully is an important one. A metaphor of gaining intelligence about your enemy in warfare can be used to explain this. In fact, the word Arahant actually means ‘foe destroyer’ (they are not destroyers of external enemies, but of internal ones, i.e., the defilements of mind). In his terrific 2016 book, former tank commander and Colonel, Douglass A. McGregor writes:

Surprise in warfare will persist, which is why a more accurate and timely picture of the opposing forces’ intentions and capabilities always confers a winning advantage. Field Marshal Arthur Wellesley, the First Duke of Wellington, said it best: “The whole art of war consists in getting at what is on the other side of the hill.” Wayne Gretzky put it differently: “A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.”

Margin of Victory: Five Battles that Changed the Face of Modern War by Douglass McGregor

The book, by the way, is an excellent one if you want a good history of a number of important modern battles, infused with a tremendous deal of strategy and tactical knowledge.

Remember: Become a monk in your early 20s, or at least spend a few months living as a white-robed layperson at a monastery — meditating, and developing insight. You won’t regret it. You will also easily be able to return to laylife if you feel that is a better choice for you, and will be able to develop a career, etc.

Renaldo

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Thank you for this.

I plan to fully devote my life to practicing the Dhamma by age 26 but I don’t know what will happen in the future. Now I’m 20. I want to live a life of purity whether that be as a monk or an eight or ten-precept lay person.

From time to time it occurs to me that just like how some people become really successful at YouTube or at sport or at building a company, maybe I can become successful at practicing the Dhamma to the point of attaining supernormal powers and vipassana knowledges. I think maybe my real talent is in the Dhamma.

No matter how idealistic it might sound, I want to live as the Bodhisatta from many jataka stories.

Although now I’m majoring in Computer Engineering, becoming a software or computer engineer isn’t what I really want to do.
Practicing the Dhamma is the only thing I can truly put my heart and soul into doing. It’s also the only thing I’m truly passionate about.

I haven’t been able to meditate like in a meditation retreat style yet. It’s hard to fully devote myself to meditation at home because I have things to do and there are distractions.

Hopefully, I will be able to practice the Dhamma in peace in the near future.

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Was that what the laypeople usually did in the time of the Buddha or after according to the texts?

According to the texts, many did. Others, with very high accumulations, did not. Of course, those with such accumulations, were born during the time of the Buddha.

Renaldo

I think defilements can be quite subtle. It is possible to ordain as a bhikkhu and still not see through them.
Thus while the sense desire is rather obvious it is wrong view that firstly needs to be attenuated.
Visuddhimagga xvii 245

And here [false-] view clinging, etc., are abandoned first because they
are eliminated by the path of stream-entry. Sense- desire clinging is abandoned later because it is eliminated by the path of Arahantship. This is the order of their abandoning.

This can be done as a layperson and depends on careful consideration of the Dhamma - and seeing its truth in daily life.

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The advice of starting early is good. I wish I started early. On the other hand, 29 is when people make a shift in their lives. It was when i made a shift. Best wishes.

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