That is true, Venerable Sir. And it’s also true that some monks who start young, start off well, but it doesn’t always end so well for them. Metaphorically, they are like King Charles XII of Sweden!
They need to emulate Venerables who have longevity in the Holy Life.
Renaldo
One of the most salient pieces of advice you should earnestly consider is to pursue celibacy as a layperson before entering into monastic life. When I speak of celibacy, I mean it in its fullest and most uncompromising sense — the unmitigated abstention from all forms of sexual activity or involvement.
Yes,
For me, it is hard to not feel lust. I have to guard my senses and put a lot of effort. I think it would be far easier in a forest monastery with no females.
I think it’s mentioned in the Mahaparinibbana sutta that it’s better not to see women.
Now I also understand why the Bodhisatta as an ascetic in the jatakas meditated on the Himalayas because it was far from sensual pleasures and distractions.
You can try living in a monastic or retreat environment where the sexes are separated. It will be far easier. But yes, start out as a lay person. It is required in most monasteries. I think the Galduwa tradition recently increased the total time for full ordination nearly to 2 years which increases the lay person and novice monk time. It is good in many ways, and bad in other ways.
Is this advice from the Buddha?
The Buddha created a complete lifestyle for monastics to support celibacy. Lay people should not think that their experience of trying to maintain celibacy in lay life will be reflective of their experience in monastic life.
My biggest reasons for wanting to become a monk is to be free from birth, aging, sickness and death. Reflecting on becoming old and sick as a lay man and lying down on a bed makes me want to escape that future, so I want to ordain and practice the path leading to the freedom from birth, aging, and death.
I found some inspirational pictures for renouncing the household life.
Not exactly. Lord Buddha did not impose a strict requirement of complete celibacy on laypeople. However, at the same time, he did not mandate engagement in relationships either. My advice was aimed at encouraging the avoidance of unnecessary attachments. Sexual involvement (not necessarily involving a partner) tends to create habitual patterns, and such habits, even when a person enters the monastic order, can continue to haunt and trouble him. A vivid example along the same lines of this is the widespread prevalence of smoking among Thai monks. Many cases of disrobing stem from lust. Training as a layperson to maintain balance can help one function more effectively within monastic life for those who intend to be ordained.
Of course not. All that we have from the Buddha is that he recommended lay people to practice celibacy occasionally.
But that is not at all what you are recommending. You are advocating for complete celibacy as a lay person. Of course if someone can maintain celibacy as a lay person that is great. And reducing sexual activity is never a bad thing. But tying celibacy in lay life to success in monastic life is a great way to prevent people from ordaining. Being celibate as a monastic is nothing like being celibate as a lay person.
Yes, that is indeed what I said: full celibacy is commendable for those who are capable of embracing it. But there are nuances to what this is; this is especially relevant for anyone planning to pursue ordination in the near future. That said, I do not equate lay celibacy with guaranteed success in monastic life. If you read what I’ve written, you’ll notice that I highlight its value in fostering continuity and helping one remain firmly rooted and steadfast along the path. It’s unclear to me, your assertion that this would somehow discourage people from seeking ordination?
Naturally, monastic celibacy differs from that practiced by the laity, but adopting even a shade of it can be deeply beneficial for anyone discerning to take the robe.
Please don’t imply that I haven’t read what you wrote.
You are recommending that people observe complete and absolute celibacy as lay people. Most who try to do this will fail miserably. If people think that this is a sign of what monastic life is like they are often going to give up before they start.
I think Ven. Subhuti’s suggestion of spending time celibate in a monastery is an excellent piece of advice.
I didn’t mean it that way. I only mentioned it as a precaution, in case you had misunderstood what I said or something along those lines.
This is intended for those who seek ordination. Understandably, not everyone is prepared to relinquish the comforts of an ordinary life — and thus, not all are inclined to pursue such a calling. As I pointed out, it is advice, not an obligation.
If someone is destined to fail at this even as a layperson, how then do you imagine things will unfold once he becomes a monk?
Once they are a monk they will be living in a situation that is most ideal for celibacy. That’s my point. Naturally there are monasteries and monastic living situation that are not conducive to basic practices let alone celibacy. But even a sub par monastic life gives you a better shot.
Some people may ordain after only a short period of lay practice and succeed, while others may have years of experience before ordaining and still feel dissatisfied, eventually disrobing. It’s not possible to know beforehand if someone will succeed in monastic life. In any case, ordination seems to require a giant leap of faith. The guidance of qualified masters and the support of good companions are among the most important factors for long-term stability in the Sangha. Good friends may be able to recognize obstacles that are not obvious to the bhikkhu and guide him in a more appropriate direction.
Having some experience before ordaining seems advisable, though not mandatory. As a general rule, those who have prior experience — such as observing the 8 precepts, practicing meditation, and studying the Dhamma — tend to be more successful, though this is not guaranteed.
I recall a passage — probably from a commentary on the Dhammapada — in which a lay follower repeatedly asked the Buddha for ordination. Several times the Buddha refused and instead instructed him to observe the 8 precepts on the Uposatha days. But when the follower was finally ready, the Buddha ordained him, and “in no long time,” he attained arahantship. At the same time, it was also common in those days for people to be ordained promptly and still become successful monks.
I know two monks who ordained with 45 day intentions but stuck around because meditation was going well. Both had completed the Jhanas and dependent origination with pa-auk vipassana stage. (maybe I said this before). One stayed 13 years and one stayed around 10 years. Both are quite monumental since they made it a rare ten years. Look around, there are not many monks who make it merely 10 years.
Not only that, one of those monks got his two daughters to ordain as sayalays for maybe 7 years each. His father also ordained and is still a monk today with maybe 20 vassa this coming rainy season (or maybe one or two more). This is a great accomplishment.
I’m in favor of short wait times for samanera ordinations. I have ordained two people so far. I however think that Westerners could use some time as samaneras before full upasampada. I think it is good for building character if they are under a good supervised teacher. However, 9-12 months should be enough. However, it should be judged on a case by case basis rather than a set policy.
Bhante, may I ask why they disrobed? Of course, I will understand if this is information they wouldn’t want shared publicly, even in this essentially anonymous fashion.
Not sure about the back stories.. they just disrobed.
There are thousands of recipes or even more in this world. There are many dishes, drinks and snacks. Even if one were to spend their whole life trying different foods, one wouldn’t be able to try them all.
There are also many hotels, restaurants, and places one could visit in their life. It’s impossible to visit all of them. In the United States alone, there are over 1 million restaurants. If you visited one restaurant every single day, it would take you approximately 2,738 years to reach 1 million. It would take nearly 14 lifetimes just to visit every restaurant in one country.
There are also many movies, songs, and tv shows. It’s impossible to experience all of them.
The sensual pleasures in this world are countless and even if a person were to spend their whole time indulging in them, they would still desire them and not be fully satiated. All these sensual pleasures are rupa arising and passing away rapidly in a single moment.
This should be enough for us to be disillusioned regarding these things and end our curiosity.
A person shouldn’t postpone practicing the Dhamma just because they want to first explore the world or try all the food in the world or listen to all the songs in this world. Enjoying sensual pleasures is endless. We have all enjoyed sensual pleasures in Samsara. It’s an endless journey. We should embark on a journey that has an end which is the journey to Nibbana.
I’ve made up my mind to go forth. I think it’s possible to attain enlightenment in this very life.
It’s interesting how desire for sensual pleasures is needed to even continue doing tasks in the household life such as studying for school. Whenever I feel samvega (sense of urgency) and fear the sufferings in samsara, my mind doesn’t incline to studying for school. I’d rather just meditate and do other wholesome actions. I have to motivate myself to study by desiring sensual pleasures such as music, food, and comfort. I think true meditation progress can only be made when I go forth, especially in my circumstances because it’s not even to practice as a college student. Even in the summer, we may have a class or some project to work on with a professor. I think the best thing for me to do now is to observe the precepts, meditate when I can, study the Dhamma Vinaya when possible, and pass my time without thinking much of it and not longing for the future. The most important part of my life will be when I go forth in the future. After I graduate from college, I can ordain and practice to make progress in the Dhamma. That’s when I will fully exert myself and strive. In the meantime, I will train my body and mind to be strong and ready for when I go forth.
I’d say I’ve been alternating between sensual pleasures and studying and practicing the Dhamma since I was 13. As long as I remain in the household, it will keep happening because the household life is home to sensual pleasures.
This is Mara speaking,
Look at you, “HappinessSeeker.” A decade of playing at being a world-weary ascetic while your stomach still growls for the next meal and your ears itch for the next melody. It is a pathetic performance.
You don’t have samvega; you have a deadline you want to miss.
The Truth of Your “Vacillation”
You have been “alternating” since you were thirteen? That is not a spiritual struggle. That is a hobby. You treat the Dhamma like a security blanket you pull over your head whenever the reality of your mediocre schoolwork becomes too heavy to face.
- The Procrastinator’s “Urgency”: You claim your mind “doesn’t incline to studying” because of the sufferings of samsara. How convenient. It is funny how “spiritual urgency” always seems to strike right when an assignment is due, yet vanishes the moment a plate of good food is put in front of you.
- The Sensual Tether: You admit you need “sensual pleasures” just to function. You are not a monk in waiting; you are a prisoner who has grown to love the taste of the bread and water. You talk of “going forth” after college, but we both know that after college there will be a “career,” then a “debt,” then “circumstances.”
You Are Not “Going Forth”
You speak of training your body and mind to be strong, yet you cannot even sit through a lecture without daydreaming about a monastery. If you cannot master a simple textbook, do you truly believe you can master the primordial fires of desire?
You are a dilettante of the spirit. You like the idea of the robes because they look like an exit sign, but you love the warmth of the house too much to ever actually open the door.
My Advice?
Stop pretending. Put down the Dhamma books—they are clearly too heavy for your weak hands. Eat your food, listen to your music, and finish your little projects.
Accept what you are: mine. You are a creature of the senses, and you have been since you were thirteen. Why fight a war you’ve already lost every day for the last decade? The “household life” isn’t just your home; it is your nature.
Stay in your room. Study your books. I will make sure the food tastes extra good tonight so you can forget this “urgency” ever existed.
Signed - Mara
Thank you for this, Venerable Sir.
