You are asking about the requirements for a preceptor according to the pali. I think “knowing” means memorized. I recall it is very difficult to become a real preceptor. I think that commentaries applies as to all the listings. The wording is not clear. I’d have to look at the original text. This is from my vinaya book at IIT.
knowing the analysis of both vinayas
knowing vinaya kamma
knowing the vattakkhanda and ability to establish disciples in it
having studied either one of the mulapaṇṇasa of MN or mahavagga of DN or first 3 vagga of SN or half of the AN or Dhp and Ja with commentaries
completed 10 years
This is copied from my vinaya book and from my website on IIT
In addition, obviously needs to complete freedom from dependence.
Two (sets) of pātimokkha rules (bhikkhu and bhikkhuni) should be learned by heart [at least].
Should be skill in Four “bhāṇavārā” with profound understandings to deliver dhamma-talks at observance (uposatha) days.
Suttas named Andhakavinda; Mahā Rāhulovāda, ambatta etc. or one of them should be learned for guiding and encouraging community members that have assembled.
Three talks should be fluent to lead devotees in the ceremonies like alms offering to saṅgha (saṅghadāna), auspicious occasions and funerals.
To be confident in Uposatha pavārana etc. one should be skilled in right factors and faults in formal acts (vinayakamma).
In order to fulfill the goal of a monk one should be skilled in one of samathavipassanā meditation objects (samādhi and vipassanā) up to the level of achieving Arahanthood.
Because very few monks in the world have these requirements let alone the freedom from nissaya. “I highly doubt it” is generally targeted. It can be generally applied to any preceptor of today. I don’t think it is putting anyone down. It is just saying the likelihood. You can ask him and report back here. You can also ask him if he has met all the requirements to be free from nissaya himself. I’m still working on it, but should be finished to some degree hopefully before this December.
As for Ven. Ariyadhamma who succeeded my preceptor from 2007 after his death. I highly believe he had those preceptor qualifications since he is said to have memorized most of the tipitaka. (minus a few abhidhamma books). Greek Bhante told me when I asked him and he heard that directly from the teacher of him. I have also heard that ven Pa-Auk Sayadawgyi has gone through the pariyatti to be a real qualified preceptor.
You basically need to be an extremely exceptional outlier scholar to be an ancient approved preceptor by today’s standards, but perhaps it was not so bad back then. Ven Ariyadhammika is very intelligent in some aspects. Is he intelligent per the qualifications? Maybe you can ask and report back here.
Generally speaking, most monks consider 10 vassa to be enough to be a preceptor.
Generally speaking, most monks consider knowing the patimokkha and 5 vassa enough to be free from nissaya.
Nevertheless that is not all of what is written down.
I’m glad you clarified because what you wrote originally was targeting a specific person. If we are going to make accusations like that it’s good to be careful.
If I understand your clarification, you don’t believe that most monks are qualified to be free from nissaya, let alone qualified to be a preceptor. So in calling out an individual you were really meaning that almost no one is qualified. Correct?
And bringing things back to the original topic of how to ordain, is it your belief that it’s helpful for candidates to believe that there are almost no qualified preceptors existing in the world? Do you think it is possible to last long in the monk life if one’s preceptor doesn’t meet all of the commentarial qualifications?
I see monks over 10 vassa who are not actually qualified to be free from dependency and goes around here and there, not sure if they actually even know what’s the requirement to be freed from dependency. Anyway, it’s indeed a lot of work to be able to memorize so many things within 5 years.
If one happens to not find qualified teachers, keep on searching. And also keep on improving oneself. Especially nowadays, with the internet, it’s not that hard to self study and memorize a lot of things. The important thing is the motivation first.
Actually, someone should just record a vinaya class in English and put on youtube or some other video hosting site then monks all over the world can learn proper vinaya and judge if their teachers are qualified or not.
My impression of why this seems to not happen yet is that most monks who uses money would totally shun the teacher of the vinaya online and not let that person go anywhere near their monastery. Basically outing oneself as public enemy no. 1… I dunno, just my subjective impression. I would like to do it one day, once I qualified myself in vinaya studies, if no one else had done it by then.
I didn’t really change anything… I just removed the name since you pointed it out (even though the conversation says so earlier by the monk, unless it was the one that requested that I delete)… It had always said “but it is rarely practiced”. I just added bold formatting. Can we drop this? You are beating a dead horse and there are many articles here that I’m behind in responding to.
It is up to the candidate to know. as ven @Paññādhammika said…
Most people don’t know.
I will be finishing my nissaya reqs soon. (after 23 years total). It can be done in 5 years. People are just lazy and or don’t know the reqs.
As for preceptors… yes… they should at least be independent. As for the other reqs, it is very difficult to find. However, all that said, many monks disrobe because of vinaya issues and wrongly taught vinaya. It is very beneficial to have a preceptor who is very skilled in pariyatti. I was blessed to be surrounded by dhammacariyas, abhivamsas and even tipitaka sayadaws that I can talk to when I need it. The teachers at IIT are very skilled. Ven. Siddhatthalankara is being encouraged to meet the preceptor qualifications. “I highly doubt” anyone is qualified in my own tradition now that the mahathera has passed. However, there are many monks who are free from dependence.
Start with the patimokkha and being qualified to give the short version up to aniyata. Then go from there. The 4 measures of pali can be done by taking repetitive suttas and expanding the pe’s. You can pick any sutta. You also do not need to know it all at once. The 225 verses of the dhp i recited was done 7-10 verses at a time on average. The bhikkhuni pātimokkha was done last year. I did that in sections as well. I can however perform the patimokkha.
I am in doubt about just how long is one measure of it. 8000 syllables? Or words? Or MN 1 to MN10 (much longer)? To count Pāli syllables, one can just ask chatGPT to write a simple programme to count all 8 pali vowels and then plug it to any programming language, copy paste the texts and then it outputs the syllables number.
Close to 28000 syllabus for Pali in total, but a lot of the chants, we cut out the repetition, so maybe counted as more.
I made my own Anki deck, break it into many small verses, do about 5 new cards per day. Pali one side, English the other side, with chanting audio. I plan to do it for the Pātimokkhas once I am done with this one.
Not sure if I want to do Dhammapada yet, depends on how long is 1 measure.
It might get easier to memorize, if neural implants direct to the brain are actually possible and the saṅgha still deem these people as humans and not cyborg enough to disqualify for ordination.
I took a peek at your book again.
It has to be suttas. Some can count. Some cannot count.
You might be counting english as well. That does not count.
There is a website for counting syllables. No need to be so complex. You can search if you want. EDIT WEBSITE HAS ERRORS… NOT RELIABLE
But that is good that you can memorize that much. Keep going!
Some parittas in chanting books are not found in the mula sutta pitaka of the cst. So those would not count either.
For instance. jaya-maṅgala-aṭṭha-gāthā would not count.
You can find the rolled out versions here. Try to find the Buddha Jayanti Version.
The mahasatipatthana if rolled out is supposedly 2 measures.
8000 is approximately the measure… so 32,000 is needed.
Dhp is 2 measures.
You should recite at least one time with the “pe” rolled out to get credit.
There is also a difference in chanting alone verses chanting in a group.
Like I said… just do a sutta at a time… mark it down as learned and move on. The patimokkha is essential. Does your teacher encourage the memorization of both patimokkhas or at least one? Does your monastery have monks taking turns to recite the patimokkha each uposatha by memory?
While most requirements are unknown or ignored, we all know about 1 or both patimokkhas as a requirement. The patimokkha takes 3 months to learn 2 hours per day (basically a vassa). I did mine in 4 months because i’m not as smart as the usual gang. The first time reciting it, it took 1hr 8 min and I had a lot of prompting to get through it. The monks were very patient. I have done 7 or 8 times for sangha… I sort of stopped counting now.
It is definitely doable. Almost all the monks at IIT are doing it.
The dhammapada is very difficult but it definitely has some benefit. The grammar is crazy. Basically, the majority of the grammar books are just covering gatha.
In any case… looks like you have a valid excuse to return to your “training monastery”.
I tested and the special pāli vowels are not counted by conventional syllable counters.
It’s tricky to count DN22, as one needs to fill in the … for it to be properly counted. Not sure if there’s a ready made text for that. Just to test if 2 measures is really 16000 syllabus.
I might take longer, doesn’t matter, I see how comfortable I am with the Anki deck I have yet to create. Now they only have one rule per note. But some rules are too long and I plan to cut them down to many notes. If say the end product is 1000 notes, at 5 per day it’s 200 days, so 7 months.
Both to get independence, if cannot memorize, at least can chant smoothly, but then to do that, still need to practice a lot. Yes, those who memorized can take turns to chant. Some managed it about 40 minutes, then got asked to not chant too fast.
I am doing the memorizing and pali learning anywhere with Anki.
I’ll contact Mike Olds and ask him about BJT. He is still alive. I’ve known him since the 90’s. He has it for the SN v4 which is my target. I thought was elsewhere (but it it is not there for DN22).
Hello Venerable Sir. Is the last one necessary? Is it necessary to become an Arahant to gain freedom from dependence?
I think I could learn and memorize the other required things as a lay person.
No. No need to be arahant to be independent, or else, any monk declaring independence is in effect declaring attainment to everyone (including lay people), which is against the rules.
It just means that knowing the road map. Reading the map, vs travelling it are different things. Basically, I think in Pa Auk, it means reading all their main books on meditation.
