Gamantapabbharavasi mahasivatthera : the worldling whose students were enlightened

[RobertK]

I stopped wondering years ago about who is enlightened because I think it is always motivated by tanha. What we can know about a teacher - beyond speculation- is whether they point to the present moment in a way that helps us to begin to insight such moments. The rest is wishful thinking.

The Anguttara nikaya commentary tells the story of one teacher, after the Buddha’s time, who had many pupils all of whom attained arahatship.

. But he was still a wordling - not even a sotapanna. However, he understood the tipitaka very, very well; knew the letter and the meaning and so was a great teacher.

see (Angutara nikaya Ekakanipata pali (the book of the ones) Nivaranapphahana-vagga (abandoning of hindrances) 6th sutta; about the Thera Gamantapabbharavasi mahasivatthera ). Many of his students became arahant[not entirely sure of this number I can`t find the orginal pali at the moment]
Later he himself attained.
here is a link to an account:
Mahashiva, Mahāśiva, Maha-shiva, Mahāsīva: 7 definitions (wisdomlib.org)
and
http://www.vipassana.info/maha/mahasiva.htm
Scroll down and you will see his name.

Mahasiva Thera. Resident of Vamantapabbhara. He was among the last of the arahants, and had taken part in various assemblies led by the Bodhisatta (J.iv.490; vi. 30). It is probably this Thera who is referred to as Gamantapabbharavasi Mahasiva in the Anguttara Commentary (AA.i.24, 29). He lived in Tissamaharama at Mahagama, and was the teacher of eighteen groups of monks. One of his pupils became an arahant, and, being aware that his teacher was yet a puthujjana, went to him and asked his leave to be taught a stanza. But Mahasiva said his pupils were so numerous that he had no time to give him a stanza. The pupil waited for a whole day and night, and then getting no chance of learning, said, If you are so busy now how will you find time to die? Mahasiva heard and understood, and exerted himself strenuously for thirty long years, at the end of which time he became an arahant.

The commentaries explain that examples like this where a puthujjana teacher helps his students to become ariya is like the Buddha was their teacher (because the putthujana teacher is using the Buddha’s words).

[Ontheway]

This is true. We need not to be so attached to find enlightened person to teach us. Instead, we have Dhamma and Vinaya here acting as our Teacher.

[RobertK]

Here is some of the context

ekaccassa pana vuttanayeneva dhutaṅgāni pariharato kileso okāsaṃ na labhati, dhutaṅgavasena vikkhambhitova hoti. so taṃ tathā vikkhambhitameva katvā vivaṭṭetvā arahattaṃ gaṇhāti gāmantapabbhāravāsī mahāsīvatthero viya. thero kira mahāgāme tissamahāvihāre vasanto tepiṭakaṃ atthavasena ca pāḷivasena ca aṭṭhārasa mahāgaṇe vāceti. therassa ovāde ṭhatvā saṭṭhisahassa bhikkhū arahattaṃ pāpuṇiṃsu. tesu eko bhikkhu attanā paṭividdhadhammaṃ ārabbha uppannasomanasso cintesi – "atthi nu kho idaṃ sukhaṃ amhākaṃ ācariyassā"ti. so āvajjento therassa puthujjanabhāvaṃ ñatvā "ekenupāyena therassa saṃvegaṃ uppādessāmī"ti attano vasanaṭṭhānato therassa santikaṃ gantvā vanditvā vattaṃ dassetvā nisīdi. atha naṃ thero "kiṃ āgatosi, āvuso, piṇḍapātikā"ti āha. "sace me okāsaṃ karissatha, ekaṃ dhammapadaṃ gaṇhissāmī"ti āgatosmi, bhanteti. bahū, āvuso, gaṇhanti, tuyhaṃ okāso na bhavissatīti. so sabbesu rattidivasabhāgesu okāsaṃ alabhanto, "bhante, evaṃ okāse asati maraṇassa kathaṃ okāsaṃ labhissathā"ti āha. tadā thero cintesi – "nāyaṃ uddesatthāya āgato, mayhaṃ panesa saṃvegajananatthāya āgato"ti. sopi thero "bhikkhunā nāma, bhante, mādisena bhavitabba"nti vatvā theraṃ vanditvā maṇivaṇṇe ākāse uppatitvā agamāsi.
32 tassa gatakālato paṭṭhāya jātasaṃvego divā uddesañca sāyaṃ uddesañca vācetvā pattacīvaraṃ hatthapāse ṭhapetvā paccūsakāle uddesaṃ gahetvā otarantena bhikkhunā saddhiṃ pattacīvaramādāya otiṇṇo terasa dhutaguṇe paripuṇṇe adhiṭṭhāya gāmantapabbhārasenāsanaṃ gantvā pabbhāraṃ paṭijaggitvā mañcapīṭhaṃ ussāpetvā "arahattaṃ apatvā mañce piṭṭhiṃ na pasāressāmī"ti mānasaṃ bandhitvā caṅkamaṃ otari. tassa "ajja arahattaṃ gaṇhissāmi ajja arahattaṃ gaṇhissāmī"ti ghaṭentasseva pavāraṇā sampattā. so pavāraṇāya upakaṭṭhāya "puthujjanabhāvaṃ pahāya visuddhipavāraṇaṃ pavāressāmī"ti cintento ativiya kilamati. so tāya thero pavāraṇāya maggaṃ vā phalaṃ vā uppādetuṃ asakkonto "mādisopi nāma āraddhavipassako na labhati, yāva dullabhañca vatidaṃ arahatta"nti vatvā teneva niyāmena ṭhānacaṅkamabahulo hutvā tiṃsa vassāni samaṇadhammaṃ katvā mahāpavāraṇāya majjhe ṭhitaṃ puṇṇacandaṃ disvā "kiṃ nu kho candamaṇḍalaṃ visuddhaṃ, udāhu mayhaṃ sīla"nti cintento "candamaṇḍale sasalakkhaṇaṃ paññāyati, mayhaṃ pana upasampadato paṭṭhāya yāvajjadivasā sīlasmiṃ kāḷakaṃ vā tilako vā natthī"ti āvajjetvā sañjātapītisomanasso paripakkañāṇattā pītiṃ vikkhambhetvā saha paṭisambhidāhi arahattaṃ pāpuṇi. evarūpassa dhutaṅgavasena vikkhambhito kileso tathā vikkhambhitova hoti.ekaccassa vuttanayeneva paṭhamajjhānādisamāpajjanabahulatāya kileso okāsaṃ na labhati, samāpattivasena vikkhambhitova hoti. so taṃ tathā vikkhambhitameva katvā vivaṭṭetvā arahattaṃ gaṇhāti mahātissatthero viya. thero kira avassikakālato paṭṭhāya aṭṭhasamāpattilābhī. so samāpattivikkhambhitānaṃ kilesānaṃ asamudācārena uggahaparipucchāvaseneva ariyamaggasāmantaṃ katheti, saṭṭhivassakālepi attano puthujjanabhāvaṃ na jānāti. athekadivasaṃ mahāgāme tissamahāvihārato bhikkhusaṅgho talaṅgaravāsidhammadinnattherassa sāsanaṃ pesesi "thero āgantvā amhākaṃ dhammakathaṃ kathetū"ti. thero adhivāsetvā "mama santike mahallakataro bhikkhu natthi, mahātissatthero kho pana me kammaṭṭhānācariyo, taṃ saṅghattheraṃ katvā

[RobertK]

Nagasena was still a puthujjana bhikkhu, but he had mastered the Abhidhamma .
He gave a talk to a laywoman and she attained - and he attained immediately after, while he reflected on the talk he had gven.

p. 21, 22 of Horners translation of the Milinda panha: (first section, giving the background of Nagasena)

Then the venerable Nagasena gave benedictive thanks
to that important woman lay-follower by means of a
profound talk on Abhidhamma that was supermundane
and connected with (the concept of) emptiness. Then as
that important woman lay-follower was sitting on that
very seat, Dhamma-vision, dustless and stainless, arose
to her: that whatever is of the nature to arise all that is
of the nature to stop.
And after he had given the benedictive thanks to that
> important woman lay-follower and was reflecting on the
> Dhamma he himself had taught (her), the venerable
> Nagasena aroused insight and was established in the
> fruit of stream-attainment as he was sitting on that
very seat.
Then the venerable Assagutta who was sitting in a,
pavilion knew that these had both acquired Dhammavision,
and he burst forth into applause: “It is good, it
is good, Nagasena, that by one shot of an arrow two
great persons are pierced.”

[mrunal_mhatre]

@RobertK

stopped wondering years ago about who is enlightened because I think it is always motivated by tanha

Master i don’t think nibbana is something which we achieved or somthing which is motivated by tanha.
I think according to pattichasamutpada by practicing vippasana we do not give any more conditions to repeat that cycle. And becouse of this kamma the cycle stops and don’t repeat itself and all ceased. And that moment is called nibbana. So i think one must need to just observe pattichasamutpada … whatever one desire more or less …when condition fullifiled one will get that experience
Am I right???

Unlike other hindu school who believe in deep meditation and believe in some experience as enlightenment.

[RobertK]

@mrunal_mhatre

Master i don’t think nibbana is something which we achieved or somthing which is motivated by tanha.

Hi mrunal
I meant that the wondering (and hoping) that such and such a teacher is enlightened is motivated by tanha.
.

For the putthajjana it is difficult to know, hard to gauge who is explaining correctly, let alone who has attained.
It is easy to be fooled, and even the teacher themselves may overestimate their understanding.

This is a time for placing confidence in the Dhamma.
This is a good topic. Keep investigating and questioning.

The importance of questioning and discussion

“Anguttara nikaya Book of twos 47 (6) “Bhikkhus, there are these two kinds of assemblies. What two? The assembly trained in vain talk, not in interrogation, and the assembly trained in interrogation, not in vain talk. 284 “And what is the assembly trained in vain talk, not in interrogation? Here, in this kind of assembly, when those discourses spoken by the Tathāgata are being recited that are deep, deep in meaning, world-transcending, connected with emptiness, the bhikkhus do not want to list…

Now what is arising: seeing, colors, thinking, doubt, wishing, wondering, hardness, heat… many different dhammas, that can be understood as they arise, as conditioned, as impermanent, as anatta.
Maha-parinibbana Sutta

Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge.

"And how, Ananda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge?
When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge.

[bksubhuti]

Achieving Nothing [No Thing]

Once upon a time the Bodhisatta — the Enlightenment Being — was born into a high class family in northern India. When he grew up he gave up the ordinary desires of the everyday world and became a holy man. He went to the Himalayan Mountains where 500 other holy men became his followers.

He meditated throughout his long life. He gained supernatural powers — like flying through the air and understanding people’s thoughts without their speaking. These special powers impressed his 500 followers greatly.

One rainy season, the chief follower took 250 of the holy men into the hill country villages to collect salt and other necessities. It just so happened that this was the time when the master was about to die. The 250 who were still by his side realized this. So they asked him, “Oh most holy one, in your long life practicing goodness and meditation, what was your greatest achievement?”

Having difficulty speaking as he was dying, the last words of the Enlightenment Being were, “No Thing.” Then he was reborn in a heaven world.

Expecting to hear about some fantastic magical power, the 250 followers were disappointed. They said to each other. “After a long life practicing goodness and meditation, our poor master has achieved ‘nothing’.” Since they considered him a failure, they burned his body with no special ceremony, honors, or even respect.

When the chief follower returned he asked, “Where is the holy one?” “He has died,” they told him. “Did you ask him about his greatest achievement?” “Of course we did,” they answered. “And what did he say?” asked the chief follower. “He said he achieved ‘nothing’,” they replied, “so we didn’t celebrate his funeral with any special honors.”

Then the chief follower said, “You brothers did not understand the meaning of the teacher’s words. He achieved the great knowledge of ‘No Thing’. He realized that the names of things are not what they are. There is what there is, without being called ‘this thing’ or ‘that thing’. There is no ‘Thing’.” In this way the chief follower explained the wonderful achievement of their great master, but they still did not understand.

Meanwhile, from his heaven world, the reborn Enlightenment Being saw that his former chief follower’s words were not accepted. So he left the heaven world and appeared floating in the air above his former followers’ monastery. In praise of the chief follower’s wisdom he said, “The one who hears the Truth and understands automatically, is far better off than a hundred fools who spend a hundred years thinking and thinking and thinking.”

By preaching in this way, the Great Being encouraged the 500 holy men to continue seeking Truth. After lives spent in serious meditation, all 500 died and were reborn in the same heaven world with their former master.

The moral is: When the wise speak, listen!