The importance of questioning and discussion

General Theravada topics
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“Anguttara nikaya Book of twos 47 (6)
“Bhikkhus, there are these two kinds of assemblies. What two? The assembly trained in vain talk, not in interrogation, and the assembly trained in interrogation, not in vain talk. 284 “And what is the assembly trained in vain talk, not in interrogation? Here, in this kind of assembly, when those discourses spoken by the Tathāgata are being recited that are deep, deep in meaning, world-transcending, connected with emptiness, the bhikkhus do not want to listen to them, do not lend an ear to them, or apply their minds to understand them; they do not think those teachings should be studied and learned. But when those discourses are being recited that are mere poetry composed by poets, beautiful in words and phrases, created by outsiders, spoken by disciples, they want to listen to them, lend an ear to them, and apply their minds to understand them; they think those teachings should be studied and learned. see note 285 And having learned those teachings, they do not interrogate each other about them or examine them thoroughly, [73] [asking]: ‘How is this? What is the meaning of this?’ They do not disclose [to others] what is obscure and elucidate what is unclear, or dispel their perplexity about numerous perplexing points. This is called the assembly trained in vain talk, not in interrogation.

“And what is the assembly trained in interrogation, not in vain talk? Here, in this kind of assembly, when those discourses are being recited that are mere poetry composed by poets, beautiful in words and phrases, created by outsiders, spoken by disciples, the bhikkhus do not want to listen to them, do not lend an ear to them, or apply their minds to understand them; they do not think those teachings should be studied and learned. But when those discourses spoken by the Tathāgata are being recited that are deep, deep in meaning, world-transcending, connected with emptiness, the bhikkhus want to listen to them, lend an ear to them, and apply their minds to understand them; they think those teachings should be studied and learned. And having learned those teachings, they interrogate each other about them and examine them thoroughly, [asking]: ‘How is this? What is the meaning of this?’ [They] disclose to [others] what is obscure and elucidate what is unclear, and dispel their perplexity about numerous perplexing points. This is called the assembly trained in interrogation, not in vain talk. “These, bhikkhus, are the two kinds of assemblies. Of these two kinds of assemblies, the assembly trained in interrogation, not in vain talk, is foremost.””— The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha: A Complete Translation of the Anguttara Nikaya (The Teachings of the Buddha) by Bhikkhu Bodhi

47
“Dvemā, bhikkhave, parisā. Katamā dve? Okkācitavinītā parisā nopaṭipucchāvinītā, paṭipucchāvinītā parisā nookkācitavinītā. Katamā ca, bhikkhave, okkācitavinītā parisā nopaṭipucchāvinītā? Idha, bhikkhave, yassaṁ parisāyaṁ bhikkhū ye te suttantā tathāgatabhāsitā gambhīrā gambhīratthā lokuttarā suññatāpaṭisaṁyuttā tesu bhaññamānesu na sussūsanti na sotaṁ odahanti na aññā cittaṁ upaṭṭhapenti na ca te dhamme uggahetabbaṁ pariyāpuṇitabbaṁ maññanti. Ye pana te suttantā kavitā kāveyyā cittakkharā cittabyañjanā bāhirakā sāvakabhāsitā tesu bhaññamānesu sussūsanti sotaṁ odahanti aññā cittaṁ upaṭṭhapenti, te dhamme uggahetabbaṁ pariyāpuṇitabbaṁ maññanti, te ca taṁ dhammaṁ pariyāpuṇitvā na ceva aññamaññaṁ paṭipucchanti na ca paṭivicaranti: Variant: kavitā → kavikatā (sabbattha)‘idaṁ kathaṁ, imassa ko attho’ti? Te avivaṭañceva na vivaranti, anuttānīkatañca na uttānīkaronti, anekavihitesu ca kaṅkhāṭhāniyesu dhammesu kaṅkhaṁ na paṭivinodenti. Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, okkācitavinītā parisā no paṭipucchāvinītā.

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, paṭipucchāvinītā parisā nookkācitavinītā? Idha, bhikkhave, yassaṁ parisāyaṁ bhikkhū ye te suttantā kavitā kāveyyā cittakkharā cittabyañjanā bāhirakā sāvakabhāsitā tesu bhaññamānesu na sussūsanti na sotaṁ odahanti na aññā cittaṁ upaṭṭhapenti, na ca te dhamme uggahetabbaṁ pariyāpuṇitabbaṁ maññanti. Ye pana te suttantā tathāgatabhāsitā gambhīrā gambhīratthā lokuttarā suññatāpaṭisaṁyuttā tesu bhaññamānesu sussūsanti sotaṁ odahanti aññā cittaṁ upaṭṭhapenti, te ca dhamme uggahetabbaṁ pariyāpuṇitabbaṁ maññanti. Te taṁ dhammaṁ pariyāpuṇitvā aññamaññaṁ paṭipucchanti paṭivicaranti: ‘idaṁ kathaṁ, imassa ko attho’ti? Te avivaṭañceva vivaranti, anuttānīkatañca uttānīkaronti, anekavihitesu ca kaṅkhāṭhāniyesu dhammesu kaṅkhaṁ paṭivinodenti. Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭipucchāvinītā parisā nookkācitavinītā. Imā kho, bhikkhave, dve parisā. Etadaggaṁ, bhikkhave, imāsaṁ dvinnaṁ parisānaṁ yadidaṁ paṭipucchāvinītā parisā nookkācitavinītā”ti.

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Bodhi note 285 Also at SN 20: 7, II 267,6–15. For “connected with emptiness” (suññatāpaṭisaṃyuttā), Mp says: “Like the Connected Discourses on the Unconditioned, disclosing mere phenomena empty of a sentient being” (sattasuññaṃ dhammamattameva pakāsakā asaṅkhatasaṃyuttasadisā)

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Very nice sutta.

The problem is that when CT reads this sutta, we think… “Oh… they should read the commentaries and the Abhidhamma.”

When the NonCT read this, they think… “oh… the commentaries and the abhidhamma were written later and added and all of this stuff that is not meant to be studied… like the original Buddha’s words”.

Nevertheless, this is for our group and our enjoyment and confirmation of the texts.
Sadhu x 3!

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From the Dispeller of Delusion. Section on Satipatthana

  1. |276| Furthermore, seven things lead to the arising of the
    investigation-o£-states enlightenment factor: (1) asking questions,
    (2) the act of cleansing the basis, (3) imparting of evenness to the
    five faculties, (4) avoidance of persons of no understanding, (5)
    1311.cultivation of persons of understanding*, (6) reviewing the field for
    the exercise of profound knowledge, (7) being resolved thereon.
  2. Herein, (1) “asking questions” is repeated questioning about
    the meaning of the aggregates, elements, bases, faculties, powers,
    enlightenment factors, path factors, jhäna factors, tranquillity and
    1313.*> insight.
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This was posted on another thread:

I think this underestimates the importance of studying and considering the Dhamma. It is rare for the Dhamma to be available and it is more than merely inspiring - it is necessary.

Discusion can also be useful and one of the benefits of this forum is that we can put forward our ideas and queries. Sometimes a reply can cast light on a sticky point.
In the texts it notes that one who studies only the suttanta may develop wrong view because the suttas use conventional terms like me , I, they. Thus studying wrongly one thinks “I” am learning, “I” am having insight.
The Atthasalini (translated as the Expositor
p31)"the bhikkhu who is ill-trained in the Suttas gets
a wrong idea, …consequently he arrives at wrong view" (see note below for full citation).

Studying Abhidhamma has a warning too - one can get lost in the impressive philosophy of the Abhidhamma and not see how actually how it applies here and now.

Sometimes people read the suttas and see a bhikhu/layperson receiving a short teaching and attaining there and then or after going somewhere and striving. They conclude that they too have understood and just need to ‘practice’.
However there are different kinds of the Buddha’s followers:

The Puggala-Pannati:

p.58

  1. What sort of person is quick in acquiring (Ugghàtitannu)?
    The person who comprehends the doctrine at the time of its pronouncement is said to be quick in acquiring.
  2. What sort of person learns by exposition (Vipancitannu)?
    The person to whom comprehension of the doctrine comes when the meaning of what is briefly uttered is analysed in detail.
  3. What sort of person is one who may be led (Neyya)?
    The person to whom comprehension of the doctrine comes by recitation, questioning, and earnest attention and by serving, cultivating and waiting upon lovely friends is one who may be led.
  4. What sort of person is one with whom the word is the chief thing (Padaparama)?
    The person to whom comprehension of doctrine would not come in this life, however much he may hear and say and bear in mind or recite, is said to be one with whom the word is the chief thing.

Note:

Expositor (atthasalini p.31)
The bhikkhu, who is well practised in the Vinaya, arrives,
by fulfilling the precepts, at the three kinds of knowledge,
which are fully treated of therein. The bhikkhu, who is well versed in the Suttas, arrives, by his attainment of concentration, at the six branches of super-knowledge, which are
fully treated of therein. The bhikkhu, who is well cultivated in the Abhidhamma, arrives, by his attainment of understanding,
at the four analyses, which are fully treated of therein. Thus
the bhikkhu, who is well trained in the three Pitakas, in due
course arrives at the attainment of the three kinds of knowledge,
six branches of super-knowledge, and the four analyses.

But the bhikkKu who is ill trained in the Vinaya, imagines
that there is no fault in the forbidden sensations of touch,
because the touch of these is similar to that of blankets and
cloaks, etc., which are pleasurable and are permitted by the
Buddha. And it has been said;
by the Blessed One, namely, that certain things are inimical
(to progress), but that they are incapable of doing any harm
to one who uses them in certain ways.’ Consequently the
bhikkhu arrives at evil practices.

The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Sutta, gets a wrong idea, not knowing the
meaning of such passages as, ‘ There are, bhikkhus, four
persons^ in the world,’ concerning which it has been said,
‘ Owing to his wrong ideas,^ he accuses us, harms himself and
produces much demerit.’ Consequently he arrives at wrong
views.
The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma,
makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions
and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental
distraction.

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‘S’ made no such post.

This post obscures the original post and can be seen as a misrepresentation. The post referred to was not made in this topic as seems to be implied. The post in toto is as follows and is a contribution to the topic it was deleted from and then put in a different topic which deals with a portion of it. The intent of this op is to contribute to that particular discussion. If someone has a difficulty with a part of this post they are welcome to start topics to deal with this or to deal with it in the original topic.

“A lot of this is just book knowledge which by itself is never liberating. If correct (in line with knowledge gained by insight meditation) it can be inspiring, but that’s all.

It can be better to understand anicca as ‘constantly changing’. Pleasant, unpleasant and neutral are all in a constant state of flux. This is the truth of ‘now’, the present moment (which is all that ever exists). The conditioned tendency, however, is to grasp for the pleasant, reject the unpleasant and ignore the neutral which amounts to wandering in the past and future. This ‘not in the now’ ’default’ mind state is constantly buffeted by this truth and the lack of control that goes with that is a constant source of dissatisfaction that easily balloons into misery.
So, the world as it can be known is conducive to misery and the misery is experienced as a result of clinging to wrong views. That same world conducive to misery, for the arhat, is not miserable because the tendencies to grasp, reject and ignore are abandoned.”

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Just a note to explain how this forum works. If you click on the blue link in my post above it gives the complete post that you made earlier today. As a general rule we only quote the sections of a post that are relevant to our reply ( as anyone can easily click on the link if they wish to read the full post). Some of your post in the original topic was not relevant, in my opinion, to the topic which is why it was spilt off. As I noted in that thread where you also complained, you are welcome to repost there.

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‘… in my opinion, …’ is correct

‘… complained…’ is not correct

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is the reasoning that “spoken by disciples” does not equate to the commentaries? Or just that the passage is one that requires expansion rather than taken literally?

On it’s face, the sutta never says that one shouldn’t listen to things “spoken by disciples” but just that you shouldn’t be someone who rejects the teachings from the Buddha and only listens to things from the other list. Is that the reasoning?

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I think that it is referring to the reluctance to look at the commentary and abhidhamma explanations (or rejecting those for the other group) as the abhidhamma and the commentaries are the official expansions of the deep deep meanings from the surface mula suttas.

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Ah, so the idea is that this actually refers to the commentary and Abhidhamma?

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