Doubt is a method used in Zen Buddhism to help practitioners enter the world of ultimate reality.
This kind of doubt is not the doubt described in Abhidhamma, which refers to doubt about the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha.
As a meditation practitioner, I have also lived and practised Zen Buddhism at a Zen monastery, but in reality, I did not understand it. Now, through practising Theravāda Buddhism many years, I have begun to understand Zen a little better, but only to a very limited extent.
The fact is that I do not truly know what the terms used in Zen mean. Understanding them requires many years of immersion in the Zen context, especially for a modern person. Therefore, I would simply say, “I don’t know.” I also choose not to use the term “Buddha-nature.”
There are many different ways to understand the reality of the Dhamma. This message is encouraging and opens our minds to accepting the existence of different meditation traditions.
Even within Theravāda Buddhism, different meditation traditions very different emphases on understanding realities. For example, Mahasi more emphasis on understanding aspects of materiality (rūpa), while U Tejaniya more emphasis on understanding the mind (nāma/citta nupassana and Dhamma nupassana).
In the Zen account of things the Buddha taught an inadequate form of Buddhism. Hence, “Hinayana,” “lesser vehicle.” Then he taught the only real thing, “Mahayana,” “greater vehicle,” to other people in secret. Mahayana is very accessible and there are 80,0000 dharma gates. Some are as simple as saying “Amitabha.” That’s it. Just say that.
But wait!
There’s another layer to this conspiracy theory. He actually double secretly taught Zen, which is the only only real real Buddhism, to Mahakasyapa ALONE. This real actual Buddhism is outside of scripture, words, and practices and is only passed psychically from mind to mind. The only people who have real dharma, then, are those in the Zen lineage that goes directly from the mind of the Buddha to Mahakasyapa and on down to Bodhidharma and finally to Shenxiu.
You can’t just get this as easily as the normal Mahayana. No amount of chanting the name of the Buddha of infinite light can get you enlightenment. There is only one dharma gate with Zen and it is guarded by a relatively tiny elite group of people who decide who they want to share it with. You cannot get there through meditation or study or anything else. Only if you are lucky enough to be hand selected for dharma transmission by a Zen master elite in Shenxiu’s dharma lineage can you enter the dharma gate.
Oh, wait!
There’s ANOTHER conspiracy! Shenxiu was actually a fraud. He didn’t really understand Zen! Secretly Hongren gave the only only only real real real actual dharma mind seal to Huineng. So only those in Huineng’s dharma lineage can actually reach true enlightenment via psychic transmission. All else have some lesser forms of an inauthentic realization.
Then their voluminous koan collections, which ostensibly depict the genuine psychic transmission of enlightenment, are all claimed to be from the Tang dynasty, yet inexplicably first appear in the Song.
So it seems Zen does not at all respect Theravada, nor the dhamma itself. They paint us as backward and inadequate and our dhamma as lesser by claiming the truth is in layered conspiracy theories that assume people are ridiculously gullible. I’m not sure why we should respect it.
On this forum we consider Orthodox Theravada as authoritative. So, here, there is no endless debate. Your critiques about Theravada are incorrect. There is nothing wrong with Theravada at all. It is the proper and perfect path.
All correct Dhamma meditation practices are about Realities and liberation.
If a person understands what the Buddha meant by ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas) and concepts (paññatti), they will understand that the content of each thought (which is conceptual) is what gives rise to defilements, while the thought itself is a reality (paramattha dhamma).
Through studying the Abhidhamma, one can also understand that in daily life, ultimate realities — direct experiences — are often overlooked by us. Meanwhile, perception (saññā) and formations (saṅkhārā) create a whole series of imaginations and concepts about people, others, and the self — the idea of “I” and “me”.
When a person begins genuine insight practice, they will see how the mind repeatedly gives names to experiences through the six sense doors, creating stories and constructing a sense of self.
From this perspective, if I were to interpret the Zen practice of Doubt, I would say that it is about not allowing deluded thoughts to arise. Perhaps a more accurate way to put it is that thoughts may arise, but we learn to let go of them without getting involved. Then direct experience — reality itself — becomes apparent.
“Neither is the mirror a stand, nor is there anything originally there” (明镜亦非台，本来无一物) points to ultimate reality when freed from conceptual elaboration.
Those who have genuinely attained realization understand that the experiential truth of practice is the same. The great Venerable Ajahn Chah himself once quoted the famous Zen saying:
“Is it the wind that moves, or the flag? It is the mind that moves.”
Respectfully, you are utterly missing the whole point of what this forum is. Here orthodox Theravada is fact. Period. Full stop. So, literally nothing you said is accurate on this forum.
Outside of this forum sure, there’s 84,000 dharma gates, Zen is passed magically from mind to mind and the fantastical conspiracy theories are all true. Liberated people see both Zen and Theravada as equal. All Mahayana, and, heck, maybe even other religions are equal and lead to enlightenment, too! All is a wonderful tapestry of enlightened experience.
But not here.
This is the one tiny corner of the internet where orthodox Theravada is respected on its own terms and taken as completely authoritative. It is not spun into a glossed over, broad strokes understanding of inclusive enlightenment that is vague and loosely defined.
If this is displeasing to you, you may enjoy dhammawheel.com. There “anything goes” Buddhism is the standard. Also dharmawheel.net. Or reddit.
@Nature So, are you saying that posting about Zen in a Classical Theravāda forum is simply an invitation to ridicule Zen, with no room for differing opinions?
I am saying that your denigrating of Theravada with
@Nature None of these things are important. Getting caught up in arguments like this could go on endlessly, and has little to do with liberation.
For example, what do you think about how Theravada views female practitioners? Bhikkhunis? Or the idea that women are not even qualified to become members of the Sangha simply because they are women, and must always bow down to male monastics?
And then trying to equate Theravada enlightenment with Zen enlightenment with your
@Nature Those who have genuinely attained realization understand that the experiential truth of practice is the same.
Are both deep misunderstandings of both the Dhamma and this specific forum’s rules.
You should quote my words in full—the first, second, and third paragraphs. Then you will understand that what I meant was to look toward the gold of wisdom.
Zen is a path of practice suited to those whose spiritual dispositions are aligned with it. You will find countless koans in which the teacher’s answers seem completely unrelated to the questions. The teacher’s responses are intended to counter the deluded thinking arising in the student. Zen is a form of direct, in-the-moment guidance given to the student to help them enter into direct experiential realization.
Zen koans all point to one thing: not getting involved in thoughts.
A famous saying quoted by the Venerable Master Xuyun: “Let the mind arise without abiding anywhere.”
When a person no longer gets involved in thoughts, reality becomes apparent.
This is only a small part of what I know about Zen. There is still a great part that I do not know.
If someone wishes to understand this, they first need to personally attain at least nāma-rūpa-pariccheda-ñāṇa (the knowledge of distinguishing mentality and materiality), the first insight knowledge in Theravāda vipassanā; alternatively, they need to have a very profound understanding of theoretical teachings such as the Abhidhamma.
For my part I was asking under the assumption that only direct Theravada pali teachings are valid. It was from there that I was asking my original question. Essentially I was asking if anything in orthodox Theravada embraces doubt. I was not asking if completely unrelated Zen practices are valid in Theravada if we loosen up and look at it broadly.
But you’re on a completely different track.
Actually promoting Zen and arguing that Theravada is problematic due to how it sees women here, as you are doing, is against the rules. But I’ll leave you to it.
It seems you strayed from your path long ago; I’m glad you found your theme.
Yet all along I have been explaining Zen to you through Theravāda Abhidhamma and meditation practice, but it seems you did not understand.
Moreover, you took the facts I described about the situation of women in Theravāda Buddhism as my belittling Theravāda Buddhism. Sorry—I am a female Theravāda meditator who has lived in Myanmar for many years, and I think I personally know more about the situation than you do. Monks who have deeply engaged with Theravāda countries should also be very clear about this. I was merely giving an example of a fact and had no intention of using it as a topic to deny anything. There is no need to panic.
In fact, although that is the case, please don’t misunderstand: between monks and nuns there is a relationship of mutual respect. The reality is far more harmonious than conceptual discussion suggests.
By the way, years ago I personally witnessed the mindfulness teacher Jack Kornfield humbly and respectfully prostrate himself before the Zen abbot of a thousand-year-old temple—before this lineage of the ancient Buddhist transmission. This is the true attitude of a seeker of the Dhamma. I affirm it.
I have no intention of discussing this controversial topic.
I was simply giving an example that similar controversial issues also exist within Theravāda Buddhism. This comes from my own experience and is based on facts.
The point of my three paragraphs was simply that these controversies are not important. Wisdom is the real gold.
I think that most of the time, my contributions to this discussion have been about the Dhamma, reality and meditation. But somehow, I keep getting drawn into controversies.
I don’t think meditation methods should be off-limits for discussion, especially as someone who has studied the Pa-Auk method in depth. In fact, this is a very important subject to examine, because it concerns whether we can develop genuine wisdom.