Garuka dhamma and Bhikkhuni ordination

Sila - morality
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https://suttacentral.net/an8.51/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=sidenotes&highlight=false&script=latin
*** Numbered Discourses 8.51Aṅguttara Nikāya 8.51**
*** 6. Gotamī6. Gotamīvagga**

Gotamī, if you accept eight principles of respect, that will be your ordination.
“Sace kho tvaṁ, gotami, aṭṭha garudhamme paṭiggaṇheyyāsi, sāva te bhavissati upasampadā—

A nun, even if she has been ordained for a hundred years, should bow down to a monk who was ordained that very day. She should rise up for him, greet him with joined palms, and observe proper etiquette toward him.
Vassasatūpasampannāya bhikkhuniyā tadahūpasampannassa bhikkhuno abhivādanaṁ paccuṭṭhānaṁ añjalikammaṁ sāmīcikammaṁ kattabbaṁ.
This principle should be honored, respected, esteemed, and venerated, and not transgressed so long as life lasts. …
Ayampi dhammo sakkatvā garuṁ katvā mānetvā pūjetvā yāvajīvaṁ anatikkamanīyo …pe….
A nun who has committed a grave offense should undergo penance in the communities of both monks and nuns for a fortnight.
Garudhammaṁ ajjhāpannāya bhikkhuniyā ubhatosaṅghe pakkhamānattaṁ caritabbaṁ.
This principle should be honored, respected, esteemed, and venerated, and not transgressed so long as life lasts.
Ayampi dhammo sakkatvā garuṁ katvā mānetvā pūjetvā yāvajīvaṁ anatikkamanīyo.

A trainee nun who has trained in the six rules for two years should seek ordination from the communities of both monks and nuns.
Dve vassāni chasu dhammesu sikkhitasikkhāya sikkhamānāya ubhatosaṅghe upasampadā pariyesitabbā.
This principle should be honored, respected, esteemed, and venerated, and not transgressed so long as life lasts.
Ayampi dhammo sakkatvā garuṁ katvā mānetvā pūjetvā yāvajīvaṁ anatikkamanīyo.

From this day forth it is forbidden for nuns to criticize monks, but it is not forbidden for monks to criticize nuns.
> Ajjatagge ovaṭo bhikkhunīnaṁ bhikkhūsu vacanapatho, anovaṭo bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīsu vacanapatho.
This principle should be honored, respected, esteemed, and venerated, and not transgressed so long as life lasts.
> Ayampi dhammo sakkatvā garuṁ katvā mānetvā pūjetvā yāvajīvaṁ anatikkamanīyo.
If you accept these eight principles of respect, that will be your ordination.”
> Sace kho tvaṁ, gotami, ime aṭṭha garudhamme paṭiggaṇheyyāsi, sāva te bhavissati upasampadā”ti.

“Ānanda, suppose there was a woman or man who was young, youthful, and fond of adornments, and had bathed their head. After getting a garland of lotuses, jasmine, or liana flowers, they would take them in both hands and place them on the crown of the head.
> “Seyyathāpi, bhante ānanda, itthī vā puriso vā daharo yuvā maṇḍanakajātiko sīsaṁnhāto uppalamālaṁ vā vassikamālaṁ vā adhimuttakamālaṁ vā labhitvā ubhohi hatthehi paṭiggahetvā uttamaṅge sirasmiṁ patiṭṭhāpeyya;
> Variant: sīsaṁnhāto → sīsaṁ nahāto (bj, pts1ed); sīsanahāto (cck); sīsanhāto (sya1ed, sya2ed) | adhimuttakamālaṁ → atimuttakamālaṁ (bj)
In the same way, sir, I accept these eight principles of respect as not to be transgressed so long as life lasts.”
evamevaṁ kho ahaṁ, bhante ānanda, ime aṭṭha garudhamme paṭiggaṇhāmi yāvajīvaṁ anatikkamanīye”ti.

Then Venerable Ānanda went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to the Buddha:
Atha kho āyasmā ānando yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṁ abhivādetvā ekamantaṁ nisīdi. Ekamantaṁ nisinno kho āyasmā ānando bhagavantaṁ etadavoca:

“Sir, Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī has accepted the eight principles of respect as not to be transgressed so long as life lasts.”
“paṭiggahitā, bhante, mahāpajāpatiyā gotamiyā aṭṭha garudhammā yāvajīvaṁ anatikkamanīyā”ti.

“Ānanda, if females had not gained the going forth from the lay life to homelessness in the teaching and training proclaimed by the Realized One, the spiritual life would have lasted long. The true teaching would have remained for a thousand years.
“Sace, ānanda, nālabhissa mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṁ pabbajjaṁ, ciraṭṭhitikaṁ, ānanda, brahmacariyaṁ abhavissa, vassasahassameva saddhammo tiṭṭheyya.
But since they have gained the going forth, now the spiritual life will not last long.
> Yato ca kho, ānanda, mātugāmo tathāgatappavedite dhammavinaye agārasmā anagāriyaṁ pabbajito, na dāni, ānanda, brahmacariyaṁ ciraṭṭhitikaṁ bhavissati.
The true teaching will remain only five hundred years.
> Pañceva dāni, ānanda, vassasatāni saddhammo ṭhassati.

It’s like those families with many women and few men. They’re easy prey for bandits and thieves.
> Seyyathāpi, ānanda, yāni kānici kulāni bahutthikāni appapurisakāni, tāni suppadhaṁsiyāni honti corehi kumbhatthenakehi;
> Variant: bahutthikāni → bahukitthikāni (bj, pts1ed); bahuitthikāni (sya-all)
In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.
evamevaṁ kho, ānanda, yasmiṁ dhammavinaye labhati mātugāmo agārasmā anagāriyaṁ pabbajjaṁ, na taṁ brahmacariyaṁ ciraṭṭhitikaṁ hoti.

It’s like a field full of rice. Once the disease called ‘white bones’ attacks, it doesn’t last long.
Seyyathāpi, ānanda, sampanne sālikkhette setaṭṭhikā nāma rogajāti nipatati, evaṁ taṁ sālikkhettaṁ na ciraṭṭhitikaṁ hoti;
In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.
> evamevaṁ kho, ānanda, yasmiṁ dhammavinaye labhati mātugāmo agārasmā anagāriyaṁ pabbajjaṁ, na taṁ brahmacariyaṁ ciraṭṭhitikaṁ hoti.

It’s like a field full of sugar cane. Once the disease called ‘red rot’ attacks, it doesn’t last long.
> Seyyathāpi, ānanda, sampanne ucchukkhette mañjiṭṭhikā nāma rogajāti nipatati, evaṁ taṁ ucchukkhettaṁ na ciraṭṭhitikaṁ hoti;
> Variant: mañjiṭṭhikā → mañjeṭṭhikā (bj, sya-all)
In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.
> evamevaṁ kho, ānanda, yasmiṁ dhammavinaye labhati mātugāmo agārasmā anagāriyaṁ pabbajjaṁ, na taṁ brahmacariyaṁ ciraṭṭhitikaṁ hoti.

As a man might build a dyke around a large lake as a precaution against the water overflowing,
> Seyyathāpi, ānanda, puriso mahato taḷākassa paṭikacceva āḷiṁ bandheyya yāvadeva udakassa anatikkamanāya;
> Variant: paṭikacceva → paṭigacceva (bj, pts1ed)
in the same way as a precaution I’ve prescribed the eight principles of respect as not to be transgressed so long as life lasts.”
> evamevaṁ kho, ānanda, mayā paṭikacceva bhikkhunīnaṁ aṭṭha garudhammā paññattā yāvajīvaṁ anatikkamanīyā”ti.

Paṭhamaṁ.*

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This is the critical garuka dhamma that means, after the Bhikkhuni order went extinct centuries ago, it cannot be restarted.

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After the radical Australian group was expelled from Thai Theravada, I remember one modern non-classical scholar tried to take a middle position (I guess as a political tactic) by recommending single-party Bhikkhuni ordination by using a particular word mentioned in the Vinaya.

That word is “Ekato upasampannā”. This is a word used to mean a Bhikkhuni wo has gained upasampadā only from a single party out of the required two parties (Bhikkhu-sangha and Bhikkhuni-sangha). It is a temporary situation of the nuns who are waiting to gain upasampadā from the other party.

In order to perform this single-party high-ordination, both Bhikkhuni and Bhikkhu sangha must already be there in the world, at the time of single-party high-ordination is performed. It is not something that can be done after the Bhikkhuni sangha has disappeared from the world.

Let alone the single-party high-ordination, even to perform the Sāmaneri ordination of women, there must be a living valid Bhikkhuni sangha lineage in the world, since a monk can never ordain a woman.

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:pray: :pray: :pray:

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You can read these three articles… to be impartial … ven aggacitta’s is listed first.
The last one explores… if they are real, what about the rules, like travel and sleeping alone?

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If Pali is the only medium accepted for valid ordination , what about when lay person taking refuge and undertake five precepts ? Does the inscription on Asoka pillars were all in Pali ? I remember something called Brahmi .

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For Theravada ordination, it must be in pali. As for other traditions, or Theravada traditions that intermingle and lose their theravada blood, they can do what they want.

Ajahn Sujato claims that he can do a bhikkhu ordination with:

  • 2 theravada bhikkhus,
  • 3 mahayana bhikshus
  • Kammavaca (sangha ordination recitation) in the English language.

They are already separated from the Ajahn Chah tradition and headed towards full independence. It is a schism that is not an official schism. It is “separation by invalid ordinations”.

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Does lay people undertake 5 precepts and 8 precepts is in Pali or any language consider valid ?

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What matters most is following the practice of morality more than even the language.

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Okasa. On language and taking the 4 Great Standards:

Actually the 1 Pr gives a clear sample (case whether one has left the training or not) that both, the one who says, and the one who listens, are required to understand the meaning. Similar also samples in the 4 pr.

Actually it would be reasonable to question whether ordinations just citing Pali are valid or not, which is actually a serious matter since really less know, knew what they cite.

Again, it’s not for taking side anywhere, but to go more unbiased and really useful into the topic.

(Like always, feel given, rather then relay on wrong view “I have a right to deprive and retell selective for my preferences”, to delete it as you might feel having a personal gain.)

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Anyone can leave Harvard. The trick is getting in. The Harvard admin must let you in. All you have to do is pack your bags once you are accepted.

The kammavaca is done by monks and the standard of learning was higher and still expected to be higher… At paauk, they have the top monks do the readings. I went to an ordination with a Tipitaka sayadaw reading. He had all the Vinaya books memorized but was reading from the paper.
To leave, the bar is lower because you need to leave with your own low standard. Not only that, you are a monk who is leaving. It is important to get it right, even for someone like the tipitaka-sayadaw. I joked that I wanted to take a picture and say, “Hey look, the tipitaka-sayadaw needs to look at a paper just for a small kammavaca.”. I’m joking because I know it is important for him to read and fully pronounce the words. It is important.

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Ordinations are serious and should.not be improvised.
And no… English is not suitable for pali Theravada. If you use English, it is not a Theravada ordination. It is some other type of ordination. That is how Mahayana and Theravada split without a formal act. They did Chinese ordinations which caused them to lose their linage to Theravada. It did the split in a very peaceful way. Ajahn Sujato says he is willing to do ordinations in English with 3 Mahayana monks and 2 Theravada. Good luck going to any other monastery on that ordination if it ever happens. If it does, this will be a “Split by invalid ordinations” and not by formal sanghabedha actions.

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Lay people’s observations of precepts without Pali are valid but not a valid ordination. Lay people are not part of Sangha.

Ordination is obtaining the membership of the Sangha. Mere observation of precepts is not considered enough for a valid ordination.

An invalidly high-ordained (unknowingly) monk can observe upasampada precepts, but his upasampada is not valid.

There are factors mentioned by the Buddha that should be met to perform a valid upasampada. Otherwise it becomes invalid.

This happens under the Omniscience of the Buddha who laid down vinaya rules. If one believes the Buddha as Omniscient, then he believes the vinaya rules are not meaningless.

The Vinaya is a provision of the Buddha, and not a provision of even the chief disciples. Even venerable Sariputta can’t lay down vinaya.

We can’t imagine how Vinaya works. No one other than the Buddha can decide the number of rules to be laid down or their respective levels of offensiveness.

(eg: this is dukkata and not pacittiya, this is pacittiya and not dukkata …etc.)

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This is an exchange I had with him maybe 18 years back- it gives an indication of his position. I guess he still holds them to this day based on that book you linked to.

In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "rjk wrote:
— In Pali@yahoogroups.com, “Bhante Sujato…” <suj…@g…> wrote:

==============

Robert:. You cannot say that someone who ordains as a Tibetan Monk or a Dhamagupta is a Bhikkhu by Theravada standards.

===========================

Bhante Sujato…: Why not? That is, in fact, exactly what i do say.

I have been recently forming an Australian Sangha Association, and in my work for this i have had the pleasure of meeting many monastics from all traditions. They all agree on the fundamental meaning of Sangha - a community of celibate Buddhist monastics ordained in an authentic lineage. Not one has suggested that monastics from other traditions should not be regarded as properly ordained. I am aware that this is the view, sadly, that prevails in some theravadin countries, but that clearly is changing.

==================================

Robert: The only reason it could be changing is because a few well-meaning, but (IMHO) misguided souls are actively ignoring millenia of tradition. There is no example anywhere in the scriptures, of monks from outside sects being considered as Theravada and invited to participate in sanghakamma. Have you considered the dangers in this and how it was because of the strict conservatism of Theravada that the Dhamma has been preserved until now.

=====================================

*Sujato As far as i can see, the term ‘Theravada’ does not occur in the Pali Culavagga account of the Second Council, although the bhikkhus from Pava are referred to as ‘theras’. But the proceedings of that Council took place entirely on the basis of what was Dhamma and Vinaya, not on the basis of who pledges allegiance to a certain sectarian grouping.

I mentioned in an earlier message that many other schools, such as the Sarvastivadins, might just as well claim the ‘orthodox’ bhikkhus as their forbears

In any case, the chief issue was handling money. Since we see today that the vast majority of bhikkhus, whether Theravadins or otherwise, use money, in violation of the precepts and of the findings of the second council, in what sense can they be regarded as the ‘keepers of the flame’? Surely we should, rather, encourage and support any bhikkhus or bhikkhunis who has the courage to keep the rules and renounce money, regardless of what tradition they hail from…

==================

Robert: Surely it is outrageous that some Theravada Bhikkhus now handle money, but this is a different matter. As far as I know none of these bhikkus are suggesting the vinaya be changed to suit their behaviour.

I now quote from the Katthavathuppakarana-Atthakatha (by Buddhoghosa) (p3 of Points of contoversy, PTS) I am an exceedingly slow typist so I only put in the most relevant sections.

It talks about after the second council (about 100 years after Buddha parinibbana)

“Ten thousand of the of the Vajjiputtaka bhikkhus[after spliting from the good monks] seeking adherents among themselves, formed a school called the Mahasanghika [these then split several times] Thus from the school of the Mahasanghikas, in the second century only two schools seceded from the Theravada[note that the rightful monks are called Theravada by Buddhaghosa]-Mahimsinsasakas and Vajjiputtakas… [it lists more that split later]…Thus from the Theravada arose these eleven seceding bodies making 12 in all. And these 12 together the six schools of the Mahasanghikas constitute the 18 schools which arose in the second century. Of the eighteen, 17 are to be understood as schismatics, the Theravadan only being non- schismatic.”“”

The commentary continues and cites the Dipavamsa.

The Bhikkhus [of the schismatic sects] "
settled a doctrine contrary [to the true faith] Altering the original redaction, they made another. they transposed suttas which belonged in one collection to another place;they destroyed the true meaning and the faith in the vinyaa and in the five collections. Those bhikkus who understood neither what had been taught in long expositons…settled a false meaning in connection with spourious speeches of the Buddha. These bhikkhus destroyed a great deal of meaning under the colour of the letter. Rejecting the other texts- that is to say the Pavara, the six sections of the Abhidhamma, the Patisambhidhida, the niddessa and some portions of the Jataka they composed new ones. They changed their appearance, …forsaking what was original…"

Robert: There is more along the same lines. Thus we see how fragile the Dhamma is - and open to abuse by foolish monks changing and rejecting sections of the Tipitaka at their whim. It is only because of the steadfastness of the Theravada that we have the Dhamma preserved until today.

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Sujato ( from book):

The Theravādin assertion that the Pali Vinaya is the one true and accu-
rate record cannot be sustained. When read together with the wealth of early texts from other traditions it is undeniable that the Pali constitutes
merely one voice among many. Nevertheless, it must be admitted that
in many cases the Pali Vinaya does indeed seem to preserve archaic ten-
dencies. The Mahāsaṅghika/Lokuttaravāda, despite claims to the contrary,
shows a number of features indicating it was redacted later than the Pali.
The Sarvāstivāda contains a greatly expanded list of sekhiya rules, and in
itslanguage and wording appearslater than the Pali, while the Mūlasarvās-
tivāda is obviously a late compilation. And also the Dharmaguptaka and
Mahīśāsaka show repeated indications of late development. It does seem
that, as a very general rule of thumb, the Pali is still a serious contender
for the title of the earliest Vinaya.

This is as close as he comes to praising the Theravada.
Much of the rest of the book he refers to Theravada as Mahāvihāravāsin and compares it with the schismatic sects as if those should be given equal weight.

edit: My attention was just drawn to a recent (2 days ago) statement by Sujato
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/stefan-karpik-on-pali/31650/4

sujatoBhante

2d

I’m not Theravadin. :pray:

It is good he explains that.

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It used to say something like that (about the website too) on their website or discourse website… but now I cannot find it.

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how interesting. Cuz nowadays even some secular Buddhists still try to call themselves Theravadin. (Theravada coming loosely to mean literally any Buddhist who doesnt believe in mahayana sutras, even if its a form of Buddhism they made up)

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@Trobinson465 . yes , I think it is positive that he clearly states he is not Theravada. It removes some confusion.

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