Some Zen things, such as their shikantaza, have at least some utility in Theravada, and may even be said to be related to beneficial Theravada mind states.
What about Zen koan study where one is to generate a ball of “great doubt” while meditating on a koan for years or decades with such fervor that they feel as though they have swallowed a molten iron ball that can neither be vomited up nor passed?
I can’t see how. Do you have any ideas?
It seems more profitable to develop confidence than doubt?
https://suttacentral.net/an3.125/en/tha … ight=false
Aṅguttara Nikāya
Book of the Threes
3.125. At Gotamaka Shrine
On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali at Gotamaka Shrine. There he addressed the monks, “Monks!”“Yes, lord,” the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "It’s through direct knowledge that I teach the Dhamma, not without direct knowledge. It’s with a cause that I teach the Dhamma, not without a cause. It’s with marvels that I teach the Dhamma, not without marvels. Because I teach the Dhamma through direct knowledge and not without direct knowledge, because I teach the Dhamma with a cause and not without a cause, because I teach the Dhamma with marvels and not without marvels, there is good reason for my instruction, good reason for my admonition. And that is enough for you to be content, enough for you to be gratified, enough for you to take joy that the Blessed One is rightly self-awakened, the Dhamma is well-taught by the Blessed One, and the community has practiced rightly."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One’s words. And while this explanation was being given, the ten-thousand fold cosmos quaked
Thanks Robert. That’s what I thought after reading an article about this issue but was trying to get an unbiased reaction from Theravadins untainted by the article itself, which seems to favor Theravada heavily.
Link to the article
Verses of the Senior Nuns 5.1 The Book of the Fives An Unnamed Nun (2nd )
In the twenty-five years since I went forth I have not found peace of mind,even for as long as a finger-snap.
Failing to find peace of heart,festering with sensual desire,I cried with flailing arms as I entered a dwelling.
I approached a nun in whom I had faith.She taught me the Dhamma:the aggregates, sense fields, and elements.
When I heard her teaching,I retired to a discreet place.I know my past lives;my clairvoyance is puri fied;
I encompass the minds of others;my clairaudience is purified;I’ve realized the psychic powers,and attained the ending of defilements.I have realized the six kinds of direct knowledge,and fulfilled the Buddha’s instructions.
So here we see that yes, some of those at the Buddha’s time had problems and apparently made no progress for long periods.
However, it was by hearing deep Dhamma and understanding it that the breakthough came. Always the way is seeing things as they are: yathābhūta ñāṇadassana
Majjhima Nikāya 95. With Cankī
the last part of this beautiful Sutta also tells in detailed steps how to reach the final arrival at truth… (purposely creating doubts is not included)
https://suttacentral.net/mn95/en/bodhi?lang=en&reference=none&highlight=false
Thank you, Venerable. This is one of the most excellent suttas.
Might it also be said that purposefully generating “great doubt” that feels like “swallowing a molten ball of iron that cannot be spit out nor passed” is just as silly as purposefully generating sense desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, or restlessness and remorse?
Or is “silly” perhaps too soft a word?
I think it simple lacks Right View…
Although paradoxe or koans can open a dualistic stuck mind to new insights but understanding anicca, dukkhā, anatta on a deep level it needs another level of wisdom.
Like Robert wrote: yathābhūta ñāṇadassana
@RobertK, isn’t doubt exclusively an unwholesome quality in the Abhidhamma?
I.m still a beginner with detailed Abhidamma knowledge and terms but vicikicchā is even in the common sense of the Suttas definitely a hindrance for samadhi and spiritual progress. It should be ended never encouraged.
I saw in Abhidamma texts it’s described in very details as an unwholesome mental factor.
And I am a great fan of the wonderful Happy Endings of many suttas…
“Just as if, sir, one were to set upright what was overturned, reveal what was hidden, show the way to someone who was lost, or hold up an lamp in the dark so that those with eyes could see forms even so has the Dhamma been made clear by the Blessed One in many ways.”
Great question. I’d like to know this, too, please. @RobertK , could you tell us?
Excellent point, Venerable. In the suttas, it is an often repeated opposite of the seven factors of awakening as one of the five hindrances.
Right it is.
Having said that, it can still be an object for satipatthana.
In fact it is a very good object as it is bound to arise until we are sotapanna: and if we don’t learn to see it as merely a conditioned phenomena then it has the power to really disrupt our progress.
I can see why pondering some of the deep saying in the Tipitaka might give rise to doubt at times - and still be highly useful if it is gradually understood.
But does anyone have an idea of why Zen use some usually obtuse saying of a past master for the reflection?
Zen scholar Alan Cole presents an interesting take on the matter of where these texts you reference come from in several books. He summarized them in this paper:
Would you say there is a difference between using doubt as an object for satipatthana in Theravada and the Zen method of deliberately generating intense doubt for years or decades?
Yes, hard to see a connection. I would like to know if you see anything useful in it. So far I can’t (beyond what I said about doubt)?
It being quite literally taught as a hindrance by the Buddha I think says it all.
This article gives a lot of reasoning and some examples about it:
My friend, do yourself a favor and simply forget the zen nonsense.
I think that is very wise advice. Thank you 