Wouldn’t it be possible for the dry-insighter to reach the jhanas just moments before becoming enlightened? This wouldn’t cause any controversy.
One still needs jhana to become an arahant, but the dry-insighter has great difficulty with that. However, at the moment they enter jhana, they quickly progress to the state of arahant.
Welcome to the forum Brunobm.
It is possible but it is not required.
My understanding is that the capacity to attain jhana would be essential for for full enlightenment. This would be because Right Concentration (jhanas) seems necessary for achieving states of complete eradication of sensuality (Anagami and Arahant).
In the sutta about Susima, it is said that those arahants do not possess psychic powers or the formless jhanas. However, it does not say that they lack the first four jhanas.
With this in mind, I believe that dry-insighters must have the ability to reach at least one of the first four jhanas to gain full insight and attain arahantship. It is not the case that they become enlightened without jhana. However, the period during which they experience the jhanas as unenlightened beings is extremely brief. Because at the very moment they enter jhana for the first time, they quickly realize the path-fruition stages and attain enlightenment.
This is an opinion on the subject. I wouldn’t say that “only this is true and everything else is false.” I’m open to further clarification.
dear Brunobm,
I moved your posts to a new topic. It is an important one as there are many misunderstandings and debates on your points.
Let us look first at the Susima sutta that you mentioned.
Bhikkhu Bodhi translated some of the Commentary (and tika) to the sutta:
Venerable Bodhi translates the commentary to this sutta:
“210 Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ āvuso Susīma. Spk: He shows: “Friend, we are without jhāna, dry-insighters, liberated simply by wisdom” (āvuso mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatten’ eva vimuttā). Spk-pṭ: Liberated simply by wisdom: not both-ways-liberated (na ubhatobhāgavimuttā).”
[…]Bodhi:The commentaries explain the paññāvimutta arahant to be of five kinds: those who attain one or another of the four jhānas, and the “dry-insighter” (sukkhavipassaka) who lacks mundane jhāna but still has the supramundane jhāna inseparable from the noble path (see Sv II 512,19-28). On the contrast between paññāvimutta and ubhatobhāgavimutta arahants, see MN I 477-78; Pp 14, 190-91.
211 Pubbe kho Susīma dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇaṃ. Spk: Insight knowledge is “knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma,” which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path knowledge arises; that is “knowledge of Nibbāna,” which arises later. Spk-pṭ: The “stability of the Dhamma” is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammānaṃ ṭhitatā taṃsabhāvatā): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that is “knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma.” See too n. 51, n. 105. A chapter on dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇa is at Paṭis I 50-52, where it is explained as the knowledge of the relations between each pair of factors in paṭicca-samuppāda.
212 Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is what is meant: “Susīma, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samādhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samādhi-ānisaṃsā), nor the outcome of concentration (samādhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassanā), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbāna.” Spk-pṭ: Even without concentration (vinā pi samādhiṃ): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samathalakkhaṇappattaṃ ); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanāyānika).
213 Spk: Having known him to be capable of penetration, the Buddha speaks thus giving a Dhamma teaching with three turns, at the conclusion of which the elder attained arahantship. Spk-pṭ: The “three turns” (teparivaṭṭaṃ) are by way of the turning over of the three characteristics in relation to the five aggregates. The catechism on the three characteristics recurs throughout the Khandha-saṃyutta, as at 22: 49, 59, 79, 80, 82, etc. 214 Spk: This query is started in order to make it evident that those bhikkhus were dry-insighters without jhāna (or: “dry-insight ponderers”). This is the purport here: “You are not the only dry-insighter without jhāna; those bhikkhus were also such.
Don’t be mistaken by the word ‘dry’. What could be more pleasing than deeper and deeper understanding?
All true.
Nevertheless the jhanalabhi who takes jhana as proximate cause is considered higher because they will have the additional benefits of skill in jhana .
Nina van gorkom translated part of a commentary:
the commentary to Anenjasappaaya sutta (MN 106) it is said:
Uparipannasa-Atthakatha 4.67
Samaapatti.m taava pada.t.thaana.m katvaa vipassana.m va.d.dhetvaa
When he has made the attainment of jhana the proximate cause of
insight and increased vipassana,arahatta.m ga.nhanto bhikkhu naava.m vaa u.lumpaadiini vaa nissaaya
and he attains arahatship, the bhikkhu who is as it were depending
on a boat or a raftmahogha.m taritvaa paara.m gacchanto viya na kilamati.
crosses the great flood and reaches the other side, is not tired.
The above is the path of the great ones of the past who attained
arahatship using mundane jhana as basis. These are the highest type
of arahant. Below is the path of the Sukkhavipassaka- the very
lowest type of arahant.
Sukkhavipassako pana paki.n.nakasa’nkhaare sammasitvaa arahattam
ganhantoBut the person with dry insight who has thoroughly known the
particular conditioned dhamma and attains arahatship,baahubalena sota.m chinditvaa paara.m gacchanto viya kilamati.
after he has as it were cut the stream with much force and reaches
the other side, is tired.
Bhikkhu Bodhi gives some other notes from the commentary of this
sutta (M.106):
In the sutta Ananda asks the Buddha, “a bhikkhu is practising
thus: ‘If it were not it would be mine; it will not be and it will
not be mine. What exists, what has come to be, that I am
abandonding. Thus he attains equanimity. Venerable sir , does such a
one attain Nibbana?.”……The note by bodhi (1021)from Majjima
attahakatha, “> Anandas question is intended to elicit from the Buddha
an account of the practice of the dry-insight meditator
(sukkhavipassaka) who attains arahatship without depending on a
jhanic attainment.”
Agree. It was intended more as a rhetorical question.
I’ve just discovered that this topic is controversial within the Theravāda community. There are those who argue that “jhanas are necessary for full enlightenment”—they base their view exclusively on the suttas. On the other hand, there are those who argue that the dry-insight practicers can get enlightened without relying on jhanas—this position draws from both the suttas and the commentaries.
Both sides present convincing arguments. I won’t delve too deeply into this debate for now. Instead, I’ll study the suttas and the commentaries you’ve mentioned and try to find a practical application for this information.
Thanks!
Dear Brunobm,
to help your studying look at this topic:
I gave this citation:
The Netti-pakarana (587):
Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava vipassanam upadassati.
Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties; The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of blunt faculties.
These days there are many confusions even about what jhana is and how to achieve such refined superhuman states. It is certainly difficult and then even after attaining there has to be mastery of jhana before it can be a proximate cause for attainment. Still it is true that all kusala is a support for development so yes if one has that rare ability then that is an asset - but it still needs to understood as a conditioned phenomena -(look at the Brahmajala sutta where some wrong views are based on the attainment of jhana ).
In daily life there are other issues too. We may have an idea that there needs to be a level of calm first before there can be understanding - in which case there will be tendency not to face the present moment as it is. Defilements, subtle and strong, arise often in a day and the way of vipassana is not to suppress but to understand them - they are mere conditioned phenomena. They fall away anyway. As @Namyal alluded, the complicated mass we call life starts to be untangled.
And if properly understood the way of dry insight is direct and available at any moment.
There was aquestion on dhammawheel I replied to.
My question however is more about the actual following of “the path of purificiation” (i.e. Visuddimagga) and at what point (presumably somewhere in the midst of jhanic development?
Thanks for your query Paul.
It is true that Buddhaghosa had a major section of the Vism. devoted to the development of mundane jhana.
But that is not the full picture and near the beginning of the book:
Visuddhimagga, Chapter I paragraph 6:
In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone, [3] according
as it is said:
“Formations are all impermanent:
When he sees thus with understanding
And turns away from what is ill,
That is the path to purity” (Dhp 277).
And in fact there were said to many more who attained by means of dry insight (without mundane jhana) than the great Jhanalabhis.
Why then give a whole section of the Vism. to jhanic development?
The Vism. is like an encyclopedia, it covers all cases. The greatest of the arahats had mastery of jhana and there were many at the time of the Buddha who had the accumulations to be jhanalabhi.
In other books Buddhaghosa explains in more detail about the way of sukkavipassaka - the one who does not attain jhana.
for example in the Commentary to the Susima sutta:
Bodhi translation
note 212 Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is what is meant: “Susīma, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samādhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samādhi-ānisaṃsā), nor the outcome of concentration (samādhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassanā), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbāna.” Spk-pṭ: Even without concentration (vinā pi samādhiṃ): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samathalakkhaṇappattaṃ ); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanāyānika).
The way of the vipassana alone doesn’t require a special place or special object, or even a calm mind - it is a matter of learning to see the present moment through the eyes of right view.
Anguttara nikaya
https://suttacentral.net/an4.136/pli/ms?lang=en&layout=sidebyside&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin
#Paṭhamasīlasutta Variant: Paṭhamasīlasutta → paripūrakārīsuttaṁ
“Cattārome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmiṁ. Katame cattāro? Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlesu na paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṁ na paripūrakārī, paññāya na paripūrakārī.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlesu paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṁ na paripūrakārī, paññāya na paripūrakārī.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlesu paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṁ paripūrakārī, paññāya na paripūrakārī.
Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo sīlesu paripūrakārī hoti, samādhismiṁ paripūrakārī, paññāya paripūrakārī.
Ime kho, bhikkhave, cattāro puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmin”ti.
Bodhi transl
136 (6) Virtuous Behavior (1) “Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of persons found existing in the world. What four? (1) Here, bhikkhus, some person does not fulfill virtuous behavior, concentration, and wisdom. (2) Another person fulfills virtuous behavior but does not fulfill concentration and wisdom. (3) Still another person fulfills virtuous behavior and concentration but does not fulfill wisdom. (4) And still another person fulfills virtuous behavior, concentration, and wisdom. These are the four kinds of persons found existing in the world.” 834”834 Mp: “The first is the multitude of worldly people; the second is the dry-insight stream-enterer and once-returner; and the third is the non-returner. Since the dry-insight meditator does obtain momentary jhāna arisen on the basis of his object (taṅkhaṇikampi upapattinimittakaṃ jhānaṃ paṭilabhati yeva), he too fulfills concentration. The fourth is the arahant. The following sutta should be understood by the method stated here
Generally speaking. It is not required, but those who have jhāna who also aim for Buddhist Wisdom Properly will have a better and quicker chance.
While there might be or not be suttas to back this up, jhāna is part of the Path. If it were not part of the Path it would not be included. Furthermore, the Pa-Auk teachers will confirm that those who have jhāna usually do better in the later vipassana stages.
Besides helping to develop insight, I believe the jhanas are incredibly important for monastic life. Since monks avoid sensory pleasures, the mental joy and peace from the jhanas provide a meaningful source of happiness. This can help them stay committed to their monastic path.
True that a bhikkhu who is skilled in jhana would be able to enjoy the bhikkhu life.
And many claim (in round about ways) that they have attained jhana -some claim they have mastery in all 8 mundane jhanas.
But even access concentration is no easy matter:
Vism. VII 8 Ādikammikassa hi kasiṇaparikammampi bhāro, satesu sahassesu vā ekova sakkoti.
Now, the kasiṇa preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
Katakasiṇaparikammassa nimittuppādanaṃ bhāro, satesu sahassesu vā ekova sakkoti.
The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
Uppanne nimitte taṃ vaḍḍhetvā appanādhigamo bhāro, satesu sahassesu vā ekova sakkoti.
To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
The ones who attain the supernormal state of genuine jhana are indeed worthy and of course have no need of anyone confirming that it was the real one.
Do you know if this statistic refers to per hundred/thousand practitioners of the Dhamma or to the global population?
It is clearly practitioners of Dhamma: The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
The preliminary work would not be even known about by the global population.
Sure, I understand. I just hadn’t read it properly earlier, my apologies. In that case, it’s something quite rare, as even within Theravada, few practitioners actually engage in meditation. And among those who do, many don’t pursue jhana. Even among those who seek jhana, there are some who don’t agree with the jhanas as described in the Visuddhimagga and don’t practice in that direction. So, the jhana taught by Pa-Auk must indeed be something extremely rare.
In samsara all of us must have attained mundane jhana many times, so in that regard everyone has some prior basis for the development now. But still we see from the texts it is no easy thing.
As for the numbers of who gets the counterpart sign, jhāna and psychic powers, we have discussed this in another thread. It is concluded if one takes the numbers exponentially and literally then it is impossible for the world population even today. However, it is “just a saying” of how difficult it is.
Here is a quote … It came from my class recently… for the purpose of vinaya… here you will see that jhāna is mentioned… and in the suttas it is mentioned regularly. Do we insist that jhāna is needed? No, we are Classical Theravāda and the CST introduces other terms we follow.
vinayo saṃvaratthāya, saṃvaro avippaṭisāratthāya, avippaṭisāro pāmujjatthāya, pāmujjaṃ pītatthāya, pīti passaddhatthāya, passaddhi sukhatthāya, sukhaṃ samādhatthāya, samādhi yathābhūtañāṇadassanatthāya, yathābhūtañāṇadassanaṃ nibbidatthāya, nibbidā virāgatthāya, virāgo vimuttatthāya, vimutti vimuttiñāṇadassanatthāya, vimuttiñāṇadassanaṃ anupādāparinibbānatthāya.
vinayapiṭake, parivārapāḷi, mm para 366
with the help of chatGPT 4 here is the translation of the section of the Visuddhimagga Tika.
Vism. VII 8 Ādikammikassa hi kasiṇaparikammampi bhāro, satesu sahassesu vā ekova sakkoti.
Now, the kasiṇa preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
Katakasiṇaparikammassa nimittuppādanaṃ bhāro, satesu sahassesu vā ekova sakkoti.
The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
Tika: Ādibhūtaṃ yogakammaṃ ādikammaṃ, taṃ etassa atthīti ādikammiko, pubbe akataparicayo bhāvanaṃ anuyuñjantoTenāha "yogāvacaro"ti.
The fundamental practice of spiritual exertion is called ‘initial action’ (ādikamma). One who engages in this is called an 'ādikammiko’ (a beginner in the practice). This refers to one who previously had no familiarity with meditation but is now applying himself to it.Therefore, he is called a ‘yogāvacara’.
( Paricayo = familiarity, acquaintance.*
** Bhāvanaṃ = meditation, mental development.*
** Anuyuñjanto = engaging in, practicing.*)
Tika: Kasiṇaparikammampi bhāroti dosavivajjanādividhinā kasiṇamaṇḍale paṭipatti yāva uggahanimittuppatti kasiṇaparikammaṃ, tampi nāma bhāro, pageva iddhivikubbanāti adhippāyo.
Even the preparation for kasiṇa meditation is a burden. The practice of kasiṇa involves refining perception through methods that remove faults and training on the kasiṇa object until the acquired meditation sign (nimitta) arises. This itself is difficult—let alone the attainment of supernormal powers, which is even more so. This is the intended meaning
Vism: Uppanne nimitte taṃ vaḍḍhetvā appanādhigamo bhāro, satesu sahassesu vā ekova sakkoti.
To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.
Tika: Keci upacārasamādhiṃ labhitvā appanāsamādhiṃ adhigantuṃ na sakkonti, tādisāpi bahū hontevāti āha "appanādhigamo bhāro"ti.
Some attain access concentration but are unable to reach full absorption concentration. There are many such individuals, which is why it is said, 'Attaining full absorption is a burden.
Robert: Interesting that the Tika doesn’t mention hundreds or thousands but the less descriptive ‘bahu’ (many).