Is mundane jhana needed to attain nibbana?

Meditation
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I have not really heard of any person in Pa-Auk having trouble extending the sign.
I have observed many thousands of interviews while waiting for my thousand or so interviews with Pa-Auk Sayadawgyi. (usually one can hear 4 to 10 interviews while waiting). This is while waiting with ven Pa-Auk as a teacher alone, not to mention other teachers.

Usually (as I summarize thus what I have heard)… usually the monks who get first jhāna can usually attain all jhānas. Most… but not all. Usually going from successfully attaining first jhāna to successfully attaining 3rd jhāna is fairly quick (a few days or one to two weeks). There are some who struggle with 4th. (this is anapana). The issue is the “were you breathing?” question which gets asked. Often the accepted answer is “If I pay attention, I’m breathing. If I don’t pay attention, I don’t know”. But usually and I say this lightly… they know they were not breathing after they emerge from the 4th jhāna meditation. After they get past this… attaining 4th jhāna in other objects is nearly the same. I’ve never heard of trouble with kasina if anapana was successful and they can see body parts using the light of wisdom.

Then most seem to move on to body parts. If they can see body parts (and most can), they often do all 4 jhānas on white kasina… and usually also succeed on the arupa jhānas which are an extension of 4th (5th abhidhamma jhāna). Generally speaking.

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I’m still struggling with the concept of a sukkhavipassaka arahant. One of my first posts on this forum was actually about this topic:

What do the Commentaries say about jhāna attainment during the decline of the Sāsana? Does the number of non-noble jhāna attainers also decline? Is there such a thing as a sukkhavipassaka anāgāmi?

Do non-noble people find it easier to attain jhāna? Or is it just that noble ones never attain micchā samādhi (wrong concentration)?

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At this time people are no longer able to attain mastery of jhāna.

There are sukkhavipassaka penetrators of all the stages of Enlightenment, not just Arahatta.

:folded_hands: Renaldo

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Ok, it makes sense.

Jhāna attainment is not exclusive to the Buddha Sāsana. Is there any commentary that confirms this assertion? Perhaps the number of people who attain jhāna outside the Sāsana is fewer than during its flourishing—that would make more sense.

Alternatively, during the decline of the Sāsana, the jhānas might no longer be effective in leading to higher penetrations. That possibility seems strange to me, as it would imply that sukkhavipassaka practitioners have an easier time attaining path and fruition than those who develop jhāna—when in fact, jhānas seem to facilitate that very process..

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Actually it is still possible to attain jhana nowadays. It’s even possible to attain jhana and supernormal powers outside of the Sasana so of course it’s still possible to attain them within the Sasana. From what I know, the difference is that now if someone attains arahatship, they might not automatically attain the 5 supernormal powers or the 3 knowledges. They would have train for supernormal powers using the 14 ways of mastery as mentioned in the Visuddhimagga.

From what I know, a sukkhavipassaka Arahant is an Arahant who attains arahatship but does not automatically attain the 5 supernormal powers, the three knowledges or the four discriminations at the moment of attaining arahatship. They can still train for the 5 supernormal powers through the 14 ways of mental mastery as mentioned in the Visuddhimagga.

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So a sukkhavipassaka arahant can develop new powers after arahata-phala… I didn’t think about that possibility.

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I did not say that people could not attain jhāna now, nor that people outside the time of the Sāsana could not attain jhāna, but that mastery of jhāna is not available at those times. There are five masteries of jhāna.

Renaldo

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A sukkhavipaaaka Arahant is an Arahant who does not use mundane jhāna as the basis for realization.

:folded_hands: Renaldo

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They can develop jhanas and powers before and after arahata phala. However, one thing to note is that an Arahant will have not any desire for such powers because they have finished the job of a monk. They may still attain jhana for a pleasant abiding in the here and now.

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The masteries of jhana were also available at those times because if they weren’t possible, no one would be able to move above the first jhana. Five masteries of first jhana is needed before moving to the 2nd, 3rd and 4rd jhana. Five masteries and 14 ways of training the mind are needed for supernormal powers and the Bodhisatta was able to attain them in the jatakas.

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Look at the numbers of people who claim jhana these days yet even access concentration is hard to have. The jhanas are utterly removed from sense desire.

There are 2 kinds of bhavana in the dispensation (sasana). Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna is seeing phenomena as they are as anicca, dukkha and anatta. And ārammaṇūpanijjhāna is samatha, serenity meditation. Notice that jhana is the suffix of both – but the object of concentration is quite different. Eventually even the one skilled in samatha must turn towards the lakkhana if they are to really benefit from the teachings.

Thus the one who is trying to master jhana and then turn to vipassana is taking a longer route (although a greater route)- but I believe that not many these days have the skill to do that ( there may be a few who it comes to naturally due to past accumulations). Those great ones who were jhana labhi had accumulations so that mastery of jhana was natural for them and then they could develop insight after exiting jhana.

It may seem that developing samatha is clearer than developing vipassana because there are objects like breath to focus on – so that if one can maintain focus there is apparent progress. That may seem more productive because samatha bhavana, if truly developed, directly suppresses the defilements. There is a level of calmness that is super normal and highly praised by the Buddha. But even if gaining some success in samatha that does not mean that insight will now be easier.

The path of vipassana understands any reality that arises. Common elements like seeing, hearing, thinking etc. are normally taken as “my” seeing and hearing and thinking (if there is no understanding). They should gradually be understood as mere phenomena that arise due to conditions.

Saṁyutta Nikāya 35.27. Full Understanding (2)
Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering.
And what, bhikkhus, is the all…?
The eye and forms and eye-consciousness and things to be cognized by eye-consciousness. The ear and sounds and ear-consciousness and things to be cognized by ear-consciousness…. The mind and mental phenomena and mind-consciousness and things to be cognized by mind-consciousness.

There is also concentration that arises along with sati and panna for the one developing the path of vipassana but it is subtle, its object is the present moment, the five khandhas, the ayatanas.

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All kusala is supportive (consider the necessity of parami) of the path. But if we think mundane jhanas are tied up somehow with the path that would not be correct. Look at the Brahmajala sutta where many types of wrong view actually spring out of jhana attainments.
The way of vipassana is breaking down the wrong view of self, it is so deep. It is unique.

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A more detailed post of @RobertK about Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna, ārammaṇūpanijjhāna and “the way of the sukkhavipassāka”.

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You are absolutely right. I checked the Visuddhimagga and I was mistaken. Thank you for pointing this out.

Ch IV,137. When he has once acquired mastery in these five ways, then on emerging
from the now familiar first jhána he can regard the flaws in it in this way: “This
attainment is threatened by the nearness of the hindrances, and its factors are
weakened by the grossness of the applied and sustained thought.” He can
bring the second jhána to mind as quieter and so end his attachment to the first
jhána and set about doing what is needed for attaining the second…

The Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga) by Bhadantácariya Buddhaghosa
Translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Ñáóamoli

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/PathofPurification2011.pdf

Renaldo

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I had a discussion on dhammawheel on this topic and add some of the post from that:

Q: Mundane jhana is your term so I’m not sure what exactly what you mean.*
However, in the suttas, right samadhi is usually defined as the four jhanas (e.g. SN45.8) and the four jhanas are defined in many suttas, such as DN2.

is it like these?:

MN 8 Sallekha sutta 4. "It is possible here, Cunda, that quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But it is not these attainments that are called ‘effacement’ in the Noble One’s Discipline: these are called ‘pleasant abidings here and now’ [41] in the Noble One’s Discipline. [..]
It is possible here that with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of joy and grief, some bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the fourth jhana, which has neither-pain-nor-pleasure and purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. He might think thus: ‘I am abiding in effacement.’ But it is not these attainments that are called 'effacement’ in the Noble One’s Discipline: these are called 'pleasant abidings here and now’ in the Noble One’s Discipline.

That is what I mean by mundane jhana.
Many could attain such jhanas during and even before the Buddha - it was a different time from now - but those adepts still had to learn Dhamma and develop satipatthana and see that these are merely compounded elements.

Thus seeing into conditionality is the essence and we see in the texts even those who never developed mundane jhana if they were wise enough they could understand and penetrate into anicca, dukkha and anatta, the path of the dry insight worker. These ones studied the nature of reality in the present moment - even while walking, talking or urinating. This present moment insight of the vipassana yanika still comes with samadhi but not mundane jhana - it is momentary.
At the brief moment of attainment even for the vipassana yanaika this samadhi is so strong that it is given the name jhana - a different one from mundane jhana. For more on these different jhanas see: https://classicaltheravada.org/t/two-ty … jhana/2092

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Q: I’m thinking of the dozens of suttas that are similar to this:

DN2: Quite secluded from sense pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, he enters and dwells in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought and filled with the rapture and happiness born of seclusion. He drenches, steeps, saturates, and suffuses his body with this rapture and happiness born of seclusion, so that there is no part of his entire body which is not suffused by this rapture and happiness.
…
“When his mind is thus concentrated, pure and bright, unblemished, free from defects, malleable, wieldy, steady and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge and vision. He understands thus: ‘This is my body, having material form, composed of the four primary elements, originating from father and mother, built up out of rice and gruel, impermanent, subject to rubbing and pressing, to dissolution and dispersion. And this is my consciousness, supported by it and bound up with it.’
…
“When his mind is thus concentrated, pure and bright, unblemished, free from defects, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers. He understands as it really is: ‘This is suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’ He understands as it really is: ‘These are the cankers.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the origin of the cankers.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the cessation of the cankers.’ He understands as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the cankers.’

Well that is a good quote. And my point is that satipatthana truly commences from this following phrase.: “He understands thus: ‘This is my body, having material form, composed of the four primary elements, originating from father and mother, built up out of rice and gruel, impermanent, subject to rubbing and pressing, to dissolution and dispersion. And this is my consciousness, supported by it and bound up with it”.

As we see in the Brahmajala sutta (i.e. the one before DN2) many, many at that time attained the mundane jhanas where they had such wondrous qualities - yet in the sutta they went astray and took them as self or lasting.
For those great ones who were skilled in the various jhanas they still had to follow the path of vipassana. Thus the DN2 shows the full path, the very greatest type of arahats - who were masters of jhana and vipassana.

My other point is that while the paramount path includes mastery of the mundane jhanas - and then penetration of the four noble truths, the path of the jhanalabhi- there is a lesser path: that of the vipassanalabhi who directly understand the characteristics of realities( lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ) .without first attaining mundane jhanas.

Thus there are divisions even in arahats:
Numerical discourses 87 (7) The Son

“Bhikkhus, there are these four kinds of persons found existing in the world. What four? The ascetic unshaken, the red-lotus ascetic, the white- lotus ascetic, and the delicate ascetic among ascetics 778.
Bodhi note 778
Mp says: “The white-lotus ascetic (samaṇapuṇḍarīka) is an ascetic similar to a white lotus (puṇḍarīka), which has fewer than a hundred petals. By this he shows the dry- insight arahant (sukkhavipassakakhīṇāsavaṃ dasseti), called a white-lotus ascetic because his virtues are incomplete, since he lacks the jhānas and direct knowledges. The red-lotus ascetic (samaṇapaduma) is an ascetic similar to a red lotus (paduma), which has a full hundred petals. By this he shows the arahant liberated in both respects (ubhatobhāgavimuttaṃ khīṇāsavaṃ dasseti), called a red-lotus ascetic because his virtues are complete, since he possesses the jhānas and direct knowledges.

We should be cognisant of the difficulty in mastering the mundane jhanas. And even if we had such extraordinary accumulations the path of vipassana still has to be developed.

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Samyutta Nikaya 70 (10) Susı̄ma

Then knowing and seeing thus, do you venerable ones dwell in those peaceful deliverances that transcend forms, the formless attainments, having touched them with the body?”208
“No, friend.”
“Here now, venerable ones: this answer and the nonattainment of those states, how could this be, friends?”209
“We are liberated by wisdom, friend Susı̄ma.”210
“I do not understand in detail, friends, the meaning of what has been stated in brief by the venerable ones. It would be good if the venerable ones would explain to me in such a way that I could understand in detail what has been stated in brief.” [124]
“Whether or not you understand, friend Susı̄ma, we are liberated by wisdom.”

Then the Venerable Susı̄ma rose from his seat and approached the Blessed One. Having approached, he paid homage to the Blessed One, sat down to one side, and reported to the Blessed One the entire conversation he had had with those bhikkhus. [The Blessed One said:]
“First, Susı̄ma, comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbāna.”211
“I do not understand in detail, venerable sir, the meaning of what was stated in brief by the Blessed One. It would be good if the Blessed One would explain to me in such a way that I could understand in detail what has been stated in brief.”
“Whether or not you understand, Susı̄ma, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbāna.212
“What do you think, Susı̄ma, is form permanent or impermanent?” –“Impermanent, venerable sir.”213–“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”–“Suffering, venerable sir.”–“Is what is impermanent, suffering, andsubject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”–“No, venerable sir.”
“Is feeling permanent or impermanent?… Is perception permanent or impermanent?… Are volitional formations permanent or impermanent?… Is consciousness permanent or impermanent?” [125]–“Impermanent, venerable sir.”–“Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness?”–“Suffering, venerable sir.”–“Is what is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change fit to be regarded thus: ‘This is mine, this I am, this is my self’?”–“No, venerable sir.”
“Therefore, Susı̄ma, any kind of form whatsoever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, all form should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.

Bodhi note 210 Paññāvimuttā kho mayaṃ āvuso Susīma. Spk: He shows: “Friend, we are without jhāna, dry-insighters, liberated simply by wisdom” (āvuso mayaṃ nijjhānakā sukkhavipassakā paññāmatten’ eva vimuttā). Spk-pṭ: Liberated simply by wisdom: not both-ways-liberated (na ubhatobhāgavimuttā).

Bodhi note 211Pubbe kho Susīma dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇaṃ, pacchā nibbāne ñāṇaṃ. Spk: Insight knowledge is “knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma,” which arises first. At the end of the course of insight, path knowledge arises; that is “knowledge of Nibbāna,” which arises later. Spk-pṭ: The “stability of the Dhamma” is the stableness of phenomena, their intrinsic nature (dhammānaṃ ṭhitatā taṃsabhāvatā): namely, impermanence, suffering, nonself. Knowledge of that is “knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma.” See too n. 51, n. 105. A chapter on dhammaṭṭhitiñāṇa is at Paṭis I 50-52, where it is explained as the knowledge of the relations between each pair of factors in paṭicca-samuppāda.

212 Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration. This is what is meant: “Susīma, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samādhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by concentration (samādhi-ānisaṃsā), nor the outcome of concentration (samādhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassanā), the advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbāna.”
Spk-pṭ: Even without concentration (vinā pi samādhiṃ): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the characteristic of serenity (samathalakkhaṇappattaṃ ); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight (vipassanāyānika).
If understood on its own terms, the text establishes only that arahantship can be attained without the supernormal powers and the formless attainments. Read in the light of Spk and Spk-pṭ, it may be seen to affirm the existence of a “vehicle of bare insight” which begins directly with mindful contemplation of mental and physical phenomena, without depending on a base of concentration by means of the jhānas or access concentration (upacārasamādhi). Though the suttas themselves say nothing about a system of bare insight meditation, some contemporary teachers regard the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta as propounding such a method and appeal to Spk and Spk-pṭ for additional support.
213 Spk: Having known him to be capable of penetration, the Buddha speaks thus giving a Dhamma teaching with three turns, at the conclusion of which the elder attained arahantship. Spk-pṭ: The “three turns” (teparivaṭṭaṃ) are by way of the turning over of the three characteristics in relation to the five aggregates.
The catechism on the three characteristics recurs throughout the Khandha- saṃyutta, as at 22:49, 59, 79, 80, 82, etc.
214 Spk: This query is started in order to make it evident that those bhikkhus were dry-insighters without jhāna (or: “dry-insight ponderers”). This is the purport here: “You are not the only dry-insighter without jhāna; those bhikkhus were also such

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Clinging loves all good things.
Even genuine mundane Jhana (which is difficult to attain): From the
Patthana (translation by Narada p. 405). "

having emerged from the
jhana they esteem and review change of lineage..they esteem, enjoy and
delight in the aggregates which are the states producing resultant
states. Taking it as estimable object arises lust, arises wrong view.

"

The True man (MN 113) Bodhi

Moreover, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, an untrue man enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion. He considers thus: ‘I have gained the attainment of the first jhana; but these other bhikkhus have not gained the attainment of the first jhana.’ So he lauds himself and disparages others because of his attainment of the first jhana. This too is the character of an untrue man.
"But a true man considers thus: ‘Non-identification even with the attainment of the first jhana has been declared by the Blessed One; for in whatever way they conceive, the fact is ever other than that.’ So, putting non-identification first, he neither lauds himself nor disparages others because of his attainment of the first jhana. This too is the character of a true man.