Writing A Document for Authenticating The Abhidhamma and Commentaries

Authenticity of Texts
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There are monks who preach wrong view as if real Dhamma too.

This particular monk (having rejected Abhidhamma) taught that there is a Soul (just impermanent Soul). :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Timestamp: 24:04

He is so confused with conventional concept and ultimate concept, which he later ends up with believing there is a Being that transmigrating from life to life. He even put this misguided teaching into the mouth of Lord Buddha.

This is why I am afraid of these EBT monks.

I hope someone can come out with a Dhamma talk or something to refute this Adhamma.

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The soul is the spiritual path of man and it is something that can come out of the body. In the abhidhamma they say when a person takes rebirth in the womb or dies and leaves the body there is no being that enters the womb and there is no being when the body dies that leaves the body. This is Abhidhamma not in the suttas.
25:20 - 25:48

Well the Buddha did say in an actual sutta about the disappearance of the Dhammas…
What is not dhamma will be said as dhamma and what is Dhamma will be said as not dhamma

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“So in Christianity, they say when you die will be either reborn in heaven or hell…”

24:21 I wonder if he was somewhat a Christian, or secretly a Christian. But he also believes soul is mortal, disagreeing with Oxford Dictionary. But he seems to have mixed Buddhism and Christianity.

At 25:12, he said, “Soul is spiritual part (path?) of man.”

So he rejects Abhidhamma?
25:46 MN38? MN93? Both? Gandhabba?

#MN 93  Assalāyana Sutta | With Assalāyana But there is no gandhabba in this sutta.

So # https://youtu.be/uCYQr-QLrno?t=165 he too cannot talk about it (did not watch the video). But he talked about it in this video: https://youtu.be/e58ZQZG6ewk?t=95

A PDF file:

I’m not really curious about his view. I only try to provide some information for the sake of providing it.
I read once that a monk born among Gandhabba is shameful. Gandhabba are dancers, singers, artists… who are the servants to entertain the 31 gods of Tavatimsa. Gandhabba are one of Catumaharajika Deva.

The Thirty-one Planes of Existence - Access to Insight

(6) Devas of the Four Great Kings (catumaharajika deva), Home of the gandhabbas, the celestial musicians, and the yakkhas, tree spirits of varying degrees of ethical purity. The latter are analogous to the goblins, trolls, and fairies of Western fairy tales.

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If one doubts Atthakatha due to the “defining Dhamma meanings for the words intead of common meaning” which is called as “word play” by the modern scholars, then there is Suttas of same kind as well.

Saṁyutta Nikāya, Lokapañhāsutta
Lujjatīti kho, bhikkhu, tasmā lokoti vuccatī”ti.
It wears away, mendicant, that’s why it’s called ‘the world’.”

Dhammapada, Brāhmaṇavagga
Bāhitapāpoti brāhmaṇo,
Samacariyā samaṇoti vuccati;
Pabbājayamattano malaṁ,
Tasmā “pabbajito”ti vuccati.

A brahmin’s so-called because they have banished evil,
an ascetic’s so-called since they live a serene life.
One who has renounced all stains
is said to be a “renunciant”.

If one doubts Atthakatha due to the “mention of miraculous structure of the physical earth” (mahameru, yugandhara etc.), then there is Suttas of same kind as well.

Aṅguttara Nikāya, Pahārādasutta

Seyyathāpi, pahārāda, mahāsamuddo mahataṁ bhūtānaṁ āvāso; tatrime bhūtā—timi timiṅgalo timirapiṅgalo asurā nāgā gandhabbā; santi mahāsamudde yojanasatikāpi attabhāvā, dviyojanasatikāpi attabhāvā, tiyojanasatikāpi attabhāvā, catuyojanasatikāpi attabhāvā, pañcayojanasatikāpi attabhāvā;

Many great beings live in the ocean, such as leviathans, leviathan-gulpers, leviathan-gulper-gulpers, demons, dragons, and fairies. In the ocean there are life-forms a hundred leagues long, or even two hundred, three hundred, four hundred, or five hundred leagues long.

If one doubts Jataka due to the stories where “people and animals talk with animals”, then their is a story of same kind in Vinaya.

Vinayapiṭaka » Cūḷavaggapāḷi » Senāsanakkhandhaka

Then the Lord addressed the monks, saying: “Formerly, monks, there used to be a large banyan on a slope of the Himalayas. Three friends lived near it: a partridge, a monkey and a bull-elephant.
…
“Then, monks, the monkey and the bull-elephant spoke thus to the partridge: ‘You, friend, are the eldest of us by birth. We will respect, revere, reverence, honour you and we will abide by your advice.’

“Then, monks, the partridge caused the monkey and the bull-elephant to undertake the five moral habits and himself followed the observance of the five moral habits. They, having lived courteous, deferential, polite to one another, at the breaking up of the body after dying arose in a happy bourn, a heaven world. This, monks, came to be known as the ‘Partridge Brahma-faring.’

And if one doubts Atthakatha due to the “mention of Pali as the language in which two children born and raised completely alone in the jungle talk with each other”, then this fact has not yet proven otherwise.

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  1. Okāsa Bhante, may be an important point is to say
    that the Buddha wanted the maximum of people to attain Dhamma, as he knew their faculties, defilements and inclinations, he teached them with rge words they could easily understand. Therefore the details are not given in Suttanta, wich are vohāradesanā, popular teachings. Mainly, the disciples had to give details, not more the Buddha.

  2. The most detailed answer is in Vinaya Atthakathā, pathama Sangīti. It gives all the methods of division, from Dhamma as one, Dhamma Vinaya as two, Tipitaka, Pañca nikāya, Navanga, and 84000 Dhammakanda.
    The answer is given there, saying that when the 5 nikāya were recited by Ven Ānanda, Abhidhamma was a part of it. Because it says: " except the 4 nikāyas, all the remaining Dhamma is included.
    This method of division is
    Vinaya (by ven Upāli) Dhamma (by Ven Ānanda)
    =
    Four nikāya+ Kuddhakka Nikāya
    =
    All kudhakkha
    books
    + Abhidhamma

As the 500 MahāTherā Arahant have chosen this method of recitation, and as the content of each is not given detaily in the revelant chapter of Vinaya (since it is not the purpose, this purpose is given to Atthakathā )…
And since classicaly we use the Tipitaka division ot classification method and this other division is less popular… Then dvipatakavadī go saying the Abhidhamma was not included.

In a closed method of division we have

4 Nikāya + Kuddhakka Nikāya
=
All Kuddhakka books + Abhidhamma
Pitaka + Vinaya Pitaka

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46

Nice answer :+1:t2:

But (playing devil’s advocate here)…what if the EBT group say “… it is a fake documentary, without evidence in whatsoever that such document dated back to the time of first council? Just like how Nagarjuna claimed the hidden sutras from Naga world, that Vinaya Atthakatha is a fabrication made by Sri Lankan monks to favour its own faction and exert superiority over other existing schools, in an unfair way.”

How can we answer this ?

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47

This point of view is popular among people who prefer rejection of Abhidhamma and commentaries… They think it is musāvāda
Well, if they think the classification was done later, they may reject all the suttas classifications… Since the content of the suttas in dvi pitaka (wich they accept,) with 4 nikāya and kuddhakka is not given in the suttas… As well as the content of navanga… No any sutta list in the suttas… So the only thing is: this task was given to the commentaries and it must be since the first council. Otherwise how did they classifed in past time?
Therefore the method includes authority of commentaries, no other way.

And also we can note that there is no other ancient school who claim dvi pitaka… So to say that they wanted to support their own school would be somewhat a non sense… Only the content of Abhidhamma was disputed and argued with other schools, not the mere existence of Abhidhamma who was widely accepted.

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One of the things I like that ex-ven Aggadhammagavesaka pointed out was where in between the dhammacakkapavattana sutta and anattalakkhaṇasuttaṃ.

After dhammacakkapavattana sutta. p47 pdf pts Mahavagga

Then the Lord exhorted, instructed those remaining monks with dhamma-talk. Then while they were being exhorted, instructed by the Lord with dhamma-talk, dhamma-vision, dustless, stainless, arose to the venerable Vappa and to the venerable Bhaddiya, that “whatever is of the nature to uprise, all that is of the nature to stop.” || 33 ||

Here we see a mystery dhammatalk not recorded as a sutta.

These, having seen dhamma, attained dhamma, known dhamma . . . having attained without another’s help to full confidence in the teacher’s instruction, spoke thus to the Lord: “May we, Lord, receive the going forth in the Lord’s presence, may we receive ordination?” “Come, monks,” the Lord said, “well taught is dhamma, fare [12] the Brahma-faring for making an utter end of ill.” So this came to be these venerable ones’ ordination. || 34 ||

Then the Lord, eating the food brought back by these,3 exhorted, instructed those remaining monks with dhamma-talk, saying: “Let the group of six live on whatever the three monks bring when they have walked for almsfood.” || 35 ||

Here we see that it is The Buddha and the other two monks who did not attain yet, who were so busy with mystery instructions and meditation that the other 3 monks (six = group of 5 plus The Buddha). It should be noted that the Buddha was deeply involved with teaching. He didn’t just give a 10 minute suttanta lesson and then walk away and let them practice. If he did, he would have gotten his own food as well. It should be further examined that these are some of the highest parami disciples we can mention even though there were others who were “quicker” and “more wise or attained”. In the end, there is no difference in anyone’s attainment of arahattaphalañāṇa.

Then while they were being exhorted, instructed by the Lord with dhamma-talk, dhamma-vision, dustless, stainless, arose to the venerable Mahānāma and to the venerable Assaji, that “whatever is of the nature to uprise, all that is of the nature to stop.” || 36 ||

These, having seen dhamma, attained dhamma . . . having attained without another’s help to full confidence in the teacher’s instruction, spoke thus to the Lord: “May we, Lord, receive the going forth in the Lord’s presence, may we receive ordination?” “Come, monks,” the Lord said, “well taught is dhamma, fare the Brahma-faring for making an utter end of ill.” So this came to be these venerable ones’ ordination. || 37 ||

Anattalakkhaṇasuttaṃ

Then the Lord addressed the group of five monks, saying: “Body, monks, is not self…

I noticed with my last writing on cūḷekasāṭakabrāhmaṇavatthu that the Buddha was in town and did both day and night teachings. He didn’t just give a 10 minute suttanta teaching. However, the first example is a mula text, while this example is a commentary text.

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Yes Bhante that is a good point: the Buddha would also give personal, detailed instructions… But the selection of it in the suttas should have follow some general ways, some easiest and standard teachings to be most popular and simple… To attract more people by simple grasp.
How it could be if in the suttas monks would talk about rūpa kalapa? May be less people would understand and like it🙂
Suttas have been probably selected to follow the most popular way, vohāradesanā… And the detailed complexity given to Atthakathā or other canonical commentarial texts such as patisambidhāmagga and so on…

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Much of this group is for us to rejoice in our own findings and to strengthen and maintain our own faith. As I say in the intro to this group, “We like preaching to our own choir”. All that said, a small portion is to be convincing to the seemingly unconvincible EBT Suttantins and your point is well taken.

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This is also a very nice answer from you :blush:
Bhante was right to say your answer was correct… I didn’t want to seems a rough guy🙂 but i admit i had countless arguments with dvīpiṭakin😂

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What you said is absolutely true. Thank you for the explanation.

However, Dipitaka sect did exists in the past, it was known as Sauntrantika or Sutravada.

Which I think Bhikkhu Vimalaramsi re-ignited this sect (though not 100% same) Bhante Vimalaramsi declares we are Suttavada! - YouTube

There are many of them called themselves Suttavadin (that included a moderator in Dhammawheel forum).

This is very problematic to Buddhist communities. I have encountered these people (on internet and real life encounter too) and these people are so argumentative to a point that Theravada is nothing but a misguided tradition to them. It is frustrating sometimes seeing their comments or listening to their talks.

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That is so true, Bhante. I don’t think Buddha will preach a sutta everyday that takes about 10-15 mins to finish reading it and then call it a day. There must be more than that.

However, sometimes I try to think, if someone ask me:

" How you know Atthakatha was taught by the Buddha during his free time aside preaching Suttas? Did any Arahant that living with the Buddha said so? How dare you preach something that you have nothing to prove and mere marketing strategy? Isn’t it to be more honest if we admit the teachings are indeed lost in generations? Don’t forget this religion lasted for more than 2500 years and don’t tell me there wasn’t a thing missed."

With this, I might just walk away.

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Yes they reject a lot of things…
About the commentaries, the lack of precision and details about so many deep and crucial topics in suttas, theorical as well as practical, makes it necessary that the teaching system could not be sutta based only… Practioners needed precision… Look only the jhāna topic. Some nowadays boast their own jhāna, wich dont agree with commentaries
…where you can " think " in it, because there is vitakka vicāra… They think jhāna is vipassanā, i heard it from a follower of a certain Venerable Paññāvuddho…
Nothing to say about magga phala, for them any fantastic idea is better than commentaries😂

I think it is the nature. Whatever the format of teachings, some would only accept some part and reject or misunderstand others parts… It must be like that because people don’t have the same level of pāramī.
And if we think how most western practioners reject Abhidhamma in bloc… Abhidhamma means wisdom, mean these people lack of it. Of faith and others faculties as well i guess.
But the country of origin and to be born in a Dhamma land is only one thing, it does not make all, of course kamma is much more complex…
This Dhamma is recognized by the wisdom eye… To make a big mistake about Dhamma is because of lowvinclinations and lack of pāramī, that is indriya… In the past it was so also, is not it?

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Some replies that are given by the faithful people:

Unprovable doesn’t means the belief is wrong. It only means it is unprovable. (by scientific method)

"Reasoned-faith is an inference about “hidden things” based on available facts/ reasons.

Even the kamma and rebirth (very basics) are believed in this way.

Those things “must have been hidden”, in order it to become “faith.”

If they are provable, it is not faith.

And there must have been “reasons” to infer them, in order it to become “reasoned-faith.”

Otherwise it is blind faith.

The “strength of the reasons given” is proportional to the “individual’s level of wisdom.”

Therefore one can’t make reasoned-faith in the other one unless the other one having enough wisdom.

But one can make blind-faith or no-faith in the other one without the other one having enough wisdom.

If one admits the teachings are lost, he admits an unprovable thing.
It is a faith.

What we have is a “mind” and not a “stable entity”(aka person).
Mind is a dhamma and it is subject to the causality.
When it is given the causes for Vicikiccha, it produces a doubtful mind.
When it is given the causes for Saddha, it produces a faithful mind.

Kāyasutta
There are, bhikkhus, things that are the basis for doubt: frequently giving careless attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of unarisen doubt and for the increase and expansion of arisen doubt.

“Just as this body, bhikkhus, sustained by nutriment, subsists in dependence on nutriment and does not subsist without nutriment, so too the five hindrances, sustained by nutriment, subsist in dependence on nutriment and do not subsist without nutriment.

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Bhante this book is from a Sinhala app with English automatic translation, wich can be understood.
This is a Sinhala book wich tries to protect Abhidhamma, commentaries and some texts in the Kuddhakka Nikāya. As in Srilanka too, the views who reject it have arisen. So there are different ideas to protect these texts and to refute the theories of dvipatakin. Although the translation is poor because numerical, may still be useful and inspiring for your book Bhante.

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Yes… very readable with google translate… sadhu x 3

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Very reasonable indeed. Thanks for sharing the website too.

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Bhikkhu Bodhi, connected discourses of the Buddha, p 1064, note 81:

“Strangely, the Nikāyas (i.e 4) do not offer an analysis of the form derived from the four great elements ‘catunnaṃ mahābhuthāya rūpānaṃ’. This analysis first appears only in the Abhidhamma Piṭaka, to wich such forms includes the fives senses faculties, four senses objects (the tactile object being attributed to three elements excluding water element).”

 Here Bhikkhu Bodhi points out a major breach and weakness in the theory of "suttabased only " who does not accept Abhidhamma as authentic Buddha ' s Teaching.

The four Nikāya not only lack the descriptive analysis of the derived materiality. But it fails also to provide the link between khandas, āyatanas, and dhāthu, since the senses bases and sense objects are not mentioned as materiality derived from the four great element.
Then, it means with the 4 Nikāyas, the objects of vipassanā lacks precision and clarity, to the point that is difficult to say how they differ and corresponds. It means one who follows strict four Nikāya only does not know what are the objects of vipassanā with wich he has to practice.

Even between the 18 dhāthu and 12 āyatana, the 4 Nikāyas are not enough to discriminate clearly their differences and to explain their subtilities:

" The eighteen elements are an elaboration of the twelve sense bases. They consist of the six sense faculties, the six senses objects, and the six types of consciousness. Since six types of consciousness have been extracted from the mind base, the mind element must be a simpler type of cognitive event. The Nikāyas do not specify its precise fonction. The Abhidhamma identifies it with a type of consciousness that fulfills more rudimentary roles in the process of cognition than thevmore discriminative mind-consciousness element."

Bhikkhu Bodhi, in the Buddha ’ s words, p 312

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https://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books14/Pa-Auk-Sayadaw_Dispensations-Usage.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjfxY_mxPX3AhVpyoUKHZ4CDVoQFnoECAYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2Mf2aQb0MAN2FnXfalNsU-

I think you know this ebook from Venerable Pa Auk Sayadawji, Bhante?

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