Writing A Document for Authenticating The Abhidhamma and Commentaries

Either way, they cannot attribute the term “Abhidhamma” to Suttanta scriptures. Because those who studied and mastered Suttas were called Suttantikā and those who mastered Abhidhamma were known as Dhammakathikā according to Sutta and Vinaya texts.

From Vinaya Pitaka - Saṅghādisesakaṇḍaṃ - Duṭṭhadosasikkhāpadaṃ

"382.Sammato ca panāyasmā dabbo mallaputto sabhāgānaṃ bhikkhūnaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti. Ye te bhikkhū suttantikā tesaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti – “Te aññamaññaṃ suttantaṃ saṅgāyissantī”ti.

Ye te bhikkhū vinayadharā tesaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti – “Te aññamaññaṃ vinayaṃ vinicchinissantī”ti .

Ye te bhikkhū dhammakathikā tesaṃ ekajjhaṃ senāsanaṃ paññapeti – “Te aññamaññaṃ dhammaṃ sākacchissantī”ti."

Here, we can see three distinct groups.

From Mahagosingasutta:
"…āyasmā mahāmoggallāno maṃ etadavoca – ‘Idhāvuso sāriputta, dve bhikkhū abhidhammakathaṃ kathenti. Te aññamaññaṃ pañhaṃ pucchanti, aññamaññassa pañhaṃ puṭṭhā vissajjenti, no ca saṃsādenti, dhammī ca nesaṃ kathā pavattinī hoti. Evarūpena kho, āvuso sāriputta, bhikkhunā gosiṅgasālavanaṃ sobheyyā’”ti.

“Sādhu sādhu, sāriputta, yathā taṃ moggallānova sammā byākaramāno byākareyya. Moggallāno hi, sāriputta, dhammakathiko”ti.

Plus, those misguided EBT supporters must accept that the Buddha’s teachings comprising nine angas, in which Sutta only one of them.

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A Secondary Concern:

In case one tends to doubt the commentaries due to thinking in the lines of,

  1. Since Buddhaghosa thera himself has stated in Visuddhimagga-colophon that he wish to meet Metteyya Buddha, it seems he didn’t believe in Visuddhimagga.

  2. Since Buddhaghosa thera burnt the ancient Sinhala commentaries, such a person is not trustworthy.

then, here are counter evidences:

1. For point 1:

Thirteenth Centary Visuddhimárga-mahásanne by King Parakramabahu’s (1234 - 1269 CE),A Sinhala glossary to Visuddhimagga:

The colophon (epilogue) starting from “This Path of Purification was made by …” onwards is the writing of Buddhamitta Thera who was an student of Buddhaghosa Thera.

Why the name of Acariya Buddhagosa is mentioned as “who bears the name Buddhaghosa conferred by the venerable ones", without directly mentioning it, is because, it is considered disrespectful if a student-monk mention the teacher-monk’s name directly.

(This convention was practiced by Venerable Ananda towards his teacher Venerable Mahakassapa and said to be practiced by traditional monks even in the present day.
Therefore this indirect mention of name also supports that the colophon was written by someone else.)

2. For Point 2:

Buddhist Commentarial Literature by L. R. Goonesekere, BPS:

The Dhampiyā-aṭuvāgāṭäpadaya , a work dated in the tenth century A. C. , contains quotations from these commentaries in the original Sinhalese (pp. 136, 148, 149) .

In the Sahassavatthuppakaraṇa, a work assigned to a period before the eleventh century A. C. , the author says in the introduction that he is following the method of the Sīhalaṭṭhakathā.

There is evidence that the Sinhalese commentaries were available also to the author of the Vaṃsatthappakāsinī which has been dated by Malalasekera in the eighth century or ninth century A. C. (Mhv-a Intr. p. cix) and by Geiger between 1000 and 1250 A.C . (Dīpavaṃsa and Mahāvaṃsa 34). The author of the Vaṃsatthappakāsinī has quoted from the Sīhalaṭṭhakathā , Sīhalaṭṭhakathāmahāvaṃsa and Aṭṭhakathā, Uttaravihāra-aṭṭhakathā, Uttaravihāramahāvaṃsa, Porāṇaṭṭhakathā, Vinayaṭṭhakathā, Mahāvaṃsaṭṭhakathā and Dīpavaṃsaṭṭhakathā . These were all commentaries in Sinhalese.

Vinayaṭṭhakathā, too, may be taken as referring to the Sinhalese commentary on the Vinaya, as the Samantapāsādikā has been separately quoted.

The Pālimuttaka-Vinayavinicchaya-Saṅgaha dated in the twelfth century A.C. contains quotations from the Mahā-aṭṭhakathā, the Mahāpaccari and the Kurundī (pp. 2, 4, Sinhalese edition, B. E. 2450).

The Sārasaṅgaha which was probably written in the thirteenth century refers to a statement found in the Vinayaṭṭhakathā (p. 32, Sinhalese edition, 1898) which cannot be traced in the Samantapāsādikā. This would indicate that the statement was taken from the Sinhalese Vinayaṭṭhakathā , unless it was contained in the Samantapāsādikā of the author’s time.

About what scholars say on the trustworthiness of the 15th century book “Buddhaghosuppatti” which is the only source for the story of ‘burning Sinhala commentaries by Buddhaghosa Thera’:

Ven. Nanamoli’s Visuddhimagga Introduction:

The “popular novel” called Buddhaghosuppatti, which was composed in Burma by an elder called Mahámaògala, perhaps as early as the 15th century, is less dependable. It has already been remarked that the general opinion of European scholars is that where this imaginative tale differs from, or adds to, the Mahávaísa’s account it is in legend rather than history.

Wikipedia:

The Buddhaghosuppatti, a later biographical text, is generally regarded by Western scholars as being legend rather than history. It adds to the Mahavamsa tale certain details, such as the identity of Buddhaghosa’s parents and his village, as well as several dramatic episodes, such as the conversion of Buddhaghosa’s father and Buddhaghosa’s role in deciding a legal case. It also explains the eventual loss of the Sinhala originals that Buddhaghosa worked from in creating his Pali commentaries by claiming that Buddhaghosa collected and burnt the original manuscripts once his work was completed.

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Excellent. Keep them coming. I guess I have a lot of work to do to make this document. I’ll try to make a document tonight, but very busy… 3.5 hours of sangha meeting today.

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Great post. I’d like to add one thing.

To add to, and further support your conclusion, the statement about meeting Metteyya Buddha is not even in the original Pali text version of the Visuddhimagga. It clearly was not written by Venerable Buddhaghosa.

[The following verses are only in Sinhalese texts:]
By the performance of such merit
As has been gained by me through this
And any other still in hand
So may I in my next becoming
Behold the joys of Távatiísá,
Glad in the qualities of virtue
And unattached to sense desires.
By having reached the first fruition,
And having in my last life seen
Metteyya, Lord of Sages, Highest
Of persons in the World, and
Helper Delighting in all beings’ welfare,
And heard that Holy One proclaim
The Teaching of the Noble Dhamma,
May I grace the Victor’s Dispensation
by realizing its highest fruit
-Vism page 747

Even more clear, considering the text directly above it flatly contradicts it, by stating clearly that Venerable Buddhaghosa was already enlightened:

This Path of Purification was made by the elder who is… an ornament in the lineage of the elders who
dwell in the Great Monastery, and who are shining lights in the lineage of elders
with unblemished enlightenment in the superhuman states that are embellished
with the special qualities of the six kinds of direct-knowledge and the categories
of discrimination, who has abundant purified wit, who bears the name
Buddhaghosa
…”
-Vism. page 746

Also, years ago, I edited the Wikipedia page on the Visuddhimagga to include this as a note on the text that seeks to discredit Venerable Buddhaghosa by referring to the Metteyya line. It appears someone has deleted it! Kind of pathetic that people want to disgrace Venerable Buddhaghosa so badly that they are willing to suppress a factual note, included in the text itself by its very respected translator. They don’t like that he was brilliant, and presented an accurate depiction of the dhamma, because it rules out eternalism, extreme relativism and nihilism, and subjective idealism, so they will resort to disingenuous representations that hide facts, because those facts make clear that their representation is false.

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If someone deletes your “backed up note”, then you should put it back and jump to the talk page. If that does not work… mark it as bias and in need of moderation. Wikipedia needs most of this marked like this for theravada subjects.

Sadhu for your reference.
Last night I started to outline what I want to write, but I many things I’m doing in addition to meditation. This aṭṭhasālinī in english has me occupied quite a bit.

I’m also looking for references to the notion that
"The tipikata was brought to sri lanka complete with its commentaries. While the mula was chanted orally, the commentaries were translated into sinhala and the originals were lost (maybe due to termites)… The commentaries were then translated into pali by ven Buddhaghosa. This is why the pali language style is different. "

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Could it actually refers to the elders in Great Monastery (Mahaviharavasins) instead?

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It is only mentioned in Sri Lankan copies of Visuddhimagga. I saw ven. Dhammanando conclude it as a work of the scribal copyist, using that fact.

The following part, according to the Pali grammar, I think, is a praise about elders of Great Monastery.

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I don’t know, it literally mentions Buddhaghosa by name, doesn’t that mean it’s referencing him? It says he is “an ornament in the lineage of elders who dwell in the great monastery” and so on. So mustn’t it be referencing the elders broadly, but also him, specifically, as included within that delineation of elders who have unblemished enlightenment?

This Path of Purification was made by the elder who is… with unblemished enlightenment… who bears the name
Buddhaghosa

This Path of Purification was made by the elder who is … an ornament in the lineage of the elders who
dwell in the Great Monastery, and who are shining lights in the lineage of elders
with unblemished enlightenment in the superhuman states that are embellished
with the special qualities of the six kinds of direct-knowledge and the categories
of discrimination, who has abundant purified wit, who bears the name
Buddhaghosa
…”
-Vism. page 746

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Looking forward to reading it, Venerable. Thank you for doing this.

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Looking from the viewpoint of a Liberal Buddhist mentioned in the other thread.

On the Origin of the Buddhist Arthakathás, Cambridge University Press Stable (1871):

R. C. Childers:

At the very outset I met with a difficulty, in the shape of an historical statement in Buddhaghosa’s introductory verses which seemed in the highest degree improbable and untrustworthy.

L. Comrilla Vijasinha:

It must be admitted that the point raised by Mr. Childers is one of grave importance as affecting the credibility of Buddhaghosa and the authenticity of all the commentaries on the Tipitaka.

The word, as is well known, is compounded of two terms, attha, “meaning,” and katha, “a statement, explanation, or narrative,” the dental t being changed to the cerebral by a latitude in the rules of permutation. The literal meaning of the compound term would thus amount to simply “an explanation of meaning.” Taking this wider sense of the word as a basis for the solution of the problem, I think the statement of Buddhaghosa in his preface to the commentary on the Dígha Nikáya is not so hopelessly irreconcilable with probable and presumable facts as would at first sight appear.

On a careful perusal of the two accounts given by Buddhaghosa of the proceedings of the three famous Councils in the Sumańgala Vilásiní and the Samanta Pásádiká, this view will, I think, be found to be very reasonable. It must be admitted that no actual commentary, in the sense that the westerns attach to that term, and like that which has been handed down to us by Buddhaghosa, existed either in the lifetime of Buddha or immediately after his death. The reasons adduced by Mr. Childers, apart from others that can easily be added, against such a supposition, are overwhelmingly convincing. But if we suppose that by the word Atthakathá in his preface Buddhaghosa only meant to convey the idea that at the various Councils held for the purpose of collocating the discourses and sayings of Buddha, the meanings to be attached to different terms were discussed and properly defined, then the difficulty of conceiving the contemporaneous existence of the commentaries and the Pitakas would be entirely removed.

Buddhaghosa uses the following words: " The Dhamma as well as the Vinaya was declared by Buddha, his sacerdotal sons understood it in the same sense as it was delivered; and, inasmuch as in former times they (i.e. the Simhalese commentators) made the commentaries without rejecting their (i.e. Buddha’s immediate disciples’) opinions, therefore, etc." This passage will, I think, explain the sense in which he uses the word Atthakatha in his preface to the Sumangala Vilasini.

For two things are clearly deducible from the passage, viz., that when Buddhaghosa speaks of the Atthakatha that existed in the earliest days of Buddhism, and almost contemporaneously with Buddha, he only refers to the method of explaining and interpreting the Buddhist Scriptures adopted by Buddha’s immediate disciples

One of the glossarists in expounding this passage takes a very sensible view of the matter. His words are :—" The Dhamma as well as the Vinaya was declared by Buddha ; that is, it was declared by the blessed Buddha in words as in sense, for there is not one scriptural term which has not been defined by the Blessed One: the sense of all words has been truly expounded. Therefore it should be borne in mind that it is by the all perfect Buddha himself that even the method of interpreting the three Pitakas has been propounded. In fact, the desultory discourses made by the Blessed One here and there, are what is meant by the word Atthakatha."

My view of this subject therefore receives additional weight from the exposition given of Buddhaghosa’s meaning by his glossarist.

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I think this introduction might be very useful too. Though in Sinhalese language, I translated it into English and read it.

It shocks me that the article says that those who alienated Abhidhamma Pitaka and accused it as fake Dhamma, would lead to splits and great harm to the Sasana, which is a serious bad Kamma that will lead to rebirth in Hell.

:confounded:

(Which sparks another question in my head…say if there is a monk, good conduct, observe Sila, good speaker with a lot of followers; yet this monk despised Abhidhamma Pitaka and rejected all of it, claimed it was a fabrication by later generations and not Buddhavacana at all. Certainly he created a separated community (monks and layfollowers) that despise/looking down/ignore/antagonize Abhidhamma Pitaka. But his good merits as a monk, can save him from hellish fire?:thinking:)

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Right view and wrong view - the later is harmful. If one is ignorant about something, good to inquire or stay silent. Better not brack about it and divide the community.

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This document will take some time to write… i’m also pulled in many directions.

We also need to list out the “what about” questions that suttantas ask.
If we don’t address these, there is no purpose.

Here is a partial list off the top of my head from nagging Suttantas

  1. Did the Buddha speak the commentaries too?

  2. How many baskets were chanted at the first council?

  3. Who recited the abhidhamma in the first council?

  4. Why is the pāḷi language different in the commentaries?

  5. Why is the pāḷi language different in the Abhdhamma?

  6. Why didn’t the Buddha just say the commentaries and Abhidhamma in his suttas?

  7. Why do the commentaries say 4 āsava and the sutta says only three which is sabbāsava (all āsava)?

  8. How does on give to a Path winner if it only lasts one mind moment?

  9. Why didn’t the Buddha talk about mind moments?

  10. Why didn’t the Buddha talk about the details in his suttas?

  11. Why did the Buddha not give Abhidhamma in his suttas or mention cetasika or kalapa?

  12. Buddhaghosa was a Brahmin

  13. The breath is in the body, we should feel the breath in the whole body.

  14. The Buddha did not teach kasiṇa

  15. When did the Buddha preach the kathāvatthu?

  16. The disciples were able to attain from one line from the Buddha so why can’t I?

  17. The commentaries are complicated the suttas are easy.

  18. It is okay to kill yourself because it is in the suttas. (warning… don’t do kill yourself).

  19. Commentaries make vinaya really complicated for monks 227 rules is enough already.

  20. Babies, monkeys and peacocks cannot talk… c’mon.

  21. The commentaries mention The Buddha’s mother didn’t have sex the night of the elephant dream when conception happened similar to the Virgin Mary (sub commentary explains that it takes up to 7 days for sperm fertilize the egg which is proven by science.).

  22. You don’t need to learn past lives to become enlightened because many suttas show people becoming sotāpanna without this.

  23. The commentaries lie.

  24. The commentaries and abhidhamma are just for intellectualizing the dhamma and not for practice.

  25. The Buddha said he has completely taught the dhamma (in the suttas) before he died.

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Dear Bhante, I am amazed by your enthusiasm.

One thing I think is amiss though. I wouldn’t address people from EBT group as “Suttantikā” or “Suttanta”. I think Suttantikā of the Buddha’s days also agreed with Pali Tipitaka canon arrangement.

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Got it… shall i refer to them as:

dvi-piṭakins

:rofl:

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Haha, but Bhante, some of them also ditched Vinaya Pitaka. And many of them also rejected Suttas that involved deities and supernatural beings.

I will just use EBT movement instead. :sweat_smile:

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There were two types of Suttantikas. One group is Theravada and suttas are just the preference of them. The other group is a sect.

Eko Care »

retrofuturist wrote:
I shared an EST list from Nanavira Thera from the early 1960’s.

retrofuturist wrote:
I can’t speak for “EBTians” because, as I said earlier, I follow the Sutta Pitaka - specifically those books therein that were listed on the previous page, which are not proto-commentaries. Perhaps I am an Early Sutta Textian?

Ok EST then.

If I would say that “EST-People Don’t Have a Base”, then can you defend it?

A. Bhikkhu »

retrofuturist wrote:
Perhaps I am an Early Sutta Textian?

As a genuine question: Is the appellation of Suttantika (Sautrantika) not a fair one? I mean they posited almost the same texts to be late as, for example, Ā. Sujāto and Brahmāli, besides yourself. Even etymologically it fits perfectly since its members just refer to some sutta portions of the Tipiṭaka as authoritative.

retrofuturist wrote:
I think it’s fair to refer to as a certain doctrinal perspective, or method by which to engage with the Dhamma but (I believe it was Ceisiwr who said that) they too decided to come up with their own Abhidhamma eventually, presumably as a response to those around them. It seems it was the done thing at the time. …

As far as I can see, they did not regard the Abhidhamma as authoritative, but I haven’t researched the issue in any depth. However, a quick search yielded the following: “The Sautrāntikas were ‘Followers of the Sūtras’ because they were said to have rejected the validity of the abhidharma as being the word of the Buddha (Buddhavacana)” (Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism, s.v. Sautrāntika, pp. 790-1). …

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There are different EBTians too.
Rarely do they agree with each other and they think the others are dangerous but not themselves.

The reason is because it is based on speculation.
If you look at Ajahn Sujato’s writings he mostly asks questions “why this why not that?” rather than giving answers and people think he is a genius for asking these questions. Then they rarely guess at a solution, “it is possible that”…

In any case, the majority follow Ajahn Sujato but as they mature, they will form different texts.

Perhaps the most accurate term is abhidhamma and commentary doubters. Or just simply… “The Unfaithful” . Perhaps it is best to introduce the plethora of contradicting and unfaithful groups and then just refer to them as “The Unfaithful” as a capitalized proper noun. I’ll check with Robert who is an English Professor, but that is secondary to actually writing things

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Some people do behave as though they knew better than the Buddha.

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There is one anonymous person making videos who thinks he knows more than an abhivamsa-pa-auk kammaṭṭhāna teacher and several dhamma-cariya teachers, and venerable pa-auk sayadawgyi himself.

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