What is the classical understanding of why people in the Buddha’s time were able to enlighten just by hearing a sutta when texts like the Visuddhimagga, and many suttas themselves describe a long process of meditation and development of jhanas and insight etc. to be needed to achieve similar stages?
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Classically speaking from what I have heard several times in the Pa-auk world is that they had previously made a determination to follow the Buddha and attain enlightenment in his presence. In these cases you mention, specifically to do so very quickly.
They had attained saṅkhāraupekkhañāṇa many times and refrained from attainments.
It is similar to a Bodhisatta vow in terms of cooking time, but not nearly as long as a real sammaSamBuddho.
I’m not sure about the times, but it is a long long long time, if you make a determination like that.
You have to understand how special and rare it is to be born human during the time of a Buddha let alone be taught in His presence to fully appreciate this. These are not normal beings who just happened to be around during the time of the Buddha. It might be hard to digest, but think of the Buddha who did so in a single night, without listening to a dhammatalk, or stanza.
Even Ven Devadatta is special and his days roaming (or suffering) in saṃsāra are actually numbered. He might escape saṃsāra quicker than most Buddhist in the world today. Why? It was predicted at the time of his death that he would become a Paccekka Buddha. Therefore his time might be limited to 2 asankhaya. A very long time, but not long at all.
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How interesting. Yes if they made an attidhana as such it certainly makes sense. I also heard (I think from thanissaro) that jhana was the leisure of people in India at the time so they’re minds were already well developed. Many of his listeners would “meditate” while listening to a sutta and become enlightened that way.
https://themindingcentre.org/wp/sutta-discovery/sd-1-10/4-2-4-sammatta-niyama-s-a5-151-153-piya/
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I always make aditthana saying that “By the power of such merits done now, let me attain Sotapannahood in this very lifetime. Let me fully abandon Sakkaya Ditthi, Vicikiccha and Silabbata paramasa.”
And I think it is a mental motivation too.
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Whatever length of time it takes whoever attains does so by means of satipatthana leading to the stages of vipassana and onward to the experience of nibbana. Sariputta became a sotapanna during the time he listened to Assaji but he still went though each stage of vipassana for example.
The Way of Mindfulness: The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary (accesstoinsight.org)
O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge (arahantship) here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning (the Third Stage of Supramundane Fulfillment).
"O bhikkhus, let alone seven years. Should a person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness, in this manner, for six years… for five years… four years… three years… two years… one year, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.
"O bhikkhus, let alone a year. Should any person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness, in the manner, for seven months, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.
"O bhikkhus, let alone seven months. Should any person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for six months… five months… four months… three months… two months… one month… half-a-month, then, by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.
"O bhikkhus, let alone half-a-month. Should any person maintain these Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for a week, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.
and the Commentary
But concerning the person of keen intelligence it was stated as follows: Instructed in the morning, he will attain in the evening; instructed in the evening, he will attain in the morning
.
The Blessed One pointed out the teaching thus: “Bhikkhus, my Dispensation leads to Deliverance in this way,” closed the instruction that is crowned with arahantship in twenty-one places and uttered the following words: "This is the only way, o bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely the Four Arousings of Mindfulness."
Why then do people at this time struggle to develop?
As mentioned in this thread it depends on accumulations, pubbekatapunnata.
And even if one has some accumulations of merit if the way of satipatthana is not properly understood progress won`t be made.
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Brilliant input! Yes it seems meditation/vipassana is really the only way to liberation. So the only logical explanation is they “meditated” while listening to the sutta as mentioned earlier. For those who made the wish, thier merit must have made it so they understood satipattana at the time of the sutta. In the same way merit guided some beings who lived in the Buddha’s time to encounter the Buddha and others not to.
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Those people who enlightened just by hearing a sutta most likely were ugghaṭitaññū and vipañcitaññū grade of people. Neyya types require lots of practice.
Furthermore, suttas do not record absolutely everything. We do not know all the story behind the person who asked the Buddha. He could have been super ardent meditator meditating 20 hours per day, for 20 years… We just know the final bit, and because it involved the Buddha giving a teaching which was remembered for us.
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This is only a beginning of what it takes to attain.
Cira kala bhavana - long time development:
Tasso hi bodhisambhāresu bhāvanā sabbasambhārabhāvanā nirantarabhāvanā cirakālabhāvanā sakkaccabhāvanā cāti. Tāsu ‘‘kappe ca satasahasse, caturo ca asaṅkhiye’’ti iminā cirakālabhāvanā vuttā.Cariyapitaka Atthakatha http://kusala.online-dhamma.net/文字資料/南傳佛教圖書館%20Theravada%20Buddhism%20E-Library/006%20Chattha%20Sangayana及辭典/pali/s0512a.att.htm
Using chatGPT to translate:
. Specifically, it mentions “cirakālabhāvanā” as development over a long period, indicated by the phrase ‘‘kappe ca satasahasse, caturo ca asaṅkhiye’’, referring to the cultivation that spans eons and hundreds of thousands of years. This passage emphasizes the profound and extended commitment required in the practice of developing the foundations for enlightenment
And if it is not the right ‘meditation’ then far from being a step on the path it is taking one in the opposite direction. That is why it is crucial to properly learn pariyatti. Then every dhamma is properly discerned at the intellectual level as anatta, then it is not me who is developing - it is only conditioned elements;
this mentalitymateriality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands
merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had
> curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the
Ancients said:The mental and material are really here,
But here there is no human being to be found,
For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—
Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks.
-Vism XVIII.31
This level of understanding is very helpful to avoid going in the wrong direction.
Aṅguttara Nikāya
Book of the Tens
10.103. Wrongness
“From wrongness comes failure, not success. And how is it, monks, that from wrongness comes failure, not success?“In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.
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In SN 38.16 Ven. Sariputta has replied to this question:
…
“Kīvaciraṁ panāvuso, dhammānudhammappaṭipanno bhikkhu arahaṁ assā”ti?
“But, friend, if a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the Dhamma, would it take him long to become an arahant?”“Naciraṁ, āvuso”ti.
“Not long, friend". - Bhikkhu Bodhi translation
The way to reconcile this, IMHO, could be:
The path to meeting Buddha Dhamma and being able to practice it is long and hard. However, when one has found it and started to serious practice it, it is hard, but not nearly as long/
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At this time the Commentaries say there are only neyya and padaparama.
The neyya, if they develop sufficient understanding at the pariyatti level and can discern the right path may attain even in this life.
The padaparama cannot attain in this life but they can develop the conditions to attain in future lives.
We don’t know where we are in this long samsara - are we so close or do we need to develop much more…
If one doesn’t see the underyling view of self, combined with lobha it is possible to decide one is very advanced in understanding.
We only have to look at the internet to see the number of people who are utterly deluded yet think they are enlightened or have mastered jhana. In one way it is hilarious but it is rather sinister if they convince others to believe them.
In any event anyone who is sincere can do much in this life. Kanthaka, the bodhisatta’s horse, died of a broken heart after the future Buddha left him by the river. He was reborn as a deva and attained. This is because he had made merit over many lives.
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My question after reading this is how important is the last thought before death. I think feeling sad over losing a good and virtuous friend doesn’t lead to a bad rebirth because even sotapannas are capable of feeling sad.
A virtuous person feeling a bit sad about something or troubled by bodily pain will probably still go to heaven whereas an immoral person feeling happy or joyful at the time of death probably won’t.
If someone observes the five precepts and the seven vows and practices generosity, they will go to heaven if they have not achieved any further. Going to heaven should be easier than attaining jhana.
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i dont think classical theravada understands the last thought as sadness at the moment of death leading to an unfortunate rebirth? I thought it was only if the thought is about something wholesome/meritorious or unwholesome/demeritorious. if the thought is neither, the last thought has no effect, and next in line is simply habitual kamma you accumulated making way for your next rebirth. Regardless of whether you feel happy/sad at the moment of death.
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Yeah, I agree.
Today it isn’t different, good householder. Proper attention and the proper words of the Good Dhamma, lead to paths and fruits. Actually archiving by merely meditation isn’t even possible for most.
The five ways to liberation:
- hearing the good Dhamma
- teaching the good Dhamma
- reflecting the good Dhamma heared
- recitation/repeating the Good Dhamma heard
- if heard, if able to grasp a kammaṭṭhāna
Me would say it’s merely seldom to gain, at least paths, by what’s so popular this days.
All this 5 actually happens in the sphere of at least the first Jhana. That’s importand. Itjs not possible to grasp the Dhamma caught in the sensual sphere.
Yes, I agree.
All this 5 actually happens in the sphere of at least the first Jhana
We need to be careful here. While in first jhana there cannot be hearing or teaching or reciting. But there can be wholesome concentration.
The moment of attaining though is supramundane jhana. Different from mundane jhana.