What is the CT understanding of the citta rising up in SN 55.21 and the vinnana stream in DN 28?

General Theravada topics
1

Suppose a person was to sink a pot of ghee or oil into a deep lake and break it open.

Seyyathāpi, mahānāma, puriso sappikumbhaṁ vā telakumbhaṁ vā gambhīraṁ udakarahadaṁ ogāhitvā bhindeyya.

Its shards and chips would sink down, while the ghee or oil in it would rise up, headed for a higher place.

Tatra yā assa sakkharā vā kaṭhalā vā sā adhogāmī assa, yañca khvassa tatra sappi vā telaṁ vā taṁ uddhagāmi assa visesagāmi.

In the same way, take someone whose mind has for a long time been imbued with faith, ethics, learning, generosity, and wisdom. Their body consists of form, made up of the four principal states, produced by mother and father, built up from rice and porridge, liable to impermanence, to wearing away and erosion, to breaking up and destruction.

Evameva kho, mahānāma, yassa kassaci dīgharattaṁ saddhāparibhāvitaṁ cittaṁ …pe…

Right here the crows, vultures, hawks, hounds, jackals, and many kinds of little creatures devour it.

paññāparibhāvitaṁ cittaṁ tassa yo hi khvāyaṁ kāyo rūpī cātumahābhūtiko mātāpettikasambhavo odanakummāsūpacayo aniccucchādanaparimaddanabhedanaviddhaṁsanadhammo taṁ idheva kākā vā khādanti gijjhā vā khādanti kulalā vā khādanti sunakhā vā khādanti siṅgālā vā khādanti vividhā vā pāṇakajātā khādanti;

But their mind rises up, headed for a higher place.

yañca khvassa cittaṁ dīgharattaṁ saddhāparibhāvitaṁ …pe… paññāparibhāvitaṁ taṁ uddhagāmi hoti visesagāmi.

Your mind, Mahānāma, has for a long time been imbued with faith, ethics, learning, generosity, and wisdom.

Tuyhaṁ kho pana, mahānāma, dīgharattaṁ saddhāparibhāvitaṁ cittaṁ …pe… paññāparibhāvitaṁ cittaṁ.

Do not fear, Mahānāma, do not fear!

Mā bhāyi, mahānāma, mā bhāyi, mahānāma.

Your death will not be a bad one; your passing will not be a bad one.”

Apāpakaṁ te maraṇaṁ bhavissati, apāpikā kālaṅkiriyā”ti.

-SN 55.21

And they understand of a person that their stream of consciousness is consistent on both sides: established in both this world and the next.

Purisassa ca viññāṇasotaṁ pajānāti, ubhayato abbocchinnaṁ idha loke patiṭṭhitañca paraloke patiṭṭhitañca.

-DN 28

Some argue these show the same citta or mind going life to life. Obviously that cannot be considering the Buddha’s general teaching in many suttas, and very emphatic rejection of such a notion in MN 38 specifically. How does the CT tradition understand these suttas?

Please and thanks

2

Continuity is still there, just not entity. As mind arises and ceases moment by moment, but the causation is still there. So it’s the causation which is highlighted by the suttas. Not the solid unchanging entity.

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3

Thank you, Venerable. Could you please expand the analogy with the ghee? If the ghee floats up out of the pot, when does it become different ghee? Likewise for the citta? Is it that it is constantly arising and passing away constantly so it’s becoming new thousands or millions of times a second anyway?

4

It’s more of the qualities of the mind, having the mind trained to be wholesome, having the 5 faculties etc, the continuity, the causation still produces those wholesome qualities as mind arises and ceases. When the causes and conditions change, then qualities of the mind can change too. Of course, the big movements are impossible to reverse once one becomes a stream winner and beyond. Before that, the mind can be the best wholesome in the world to the highest rebirth in the gods realms, formless, formed or sensual, it can also be changed to be deserving to go to the lowest hell realms.

Like this body, the shape of it roughly stays the same for adult for 7 years, but over that time, the atoms may have changed a lot, so one atoms and molecules replacing another. But one can train the body to be muscle builder and has to maintain it, or become weak and bedbound.

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5

Thank you, Venerable