Recently I read multiple opinions about the meaning of Arammanaghana. Does anyone of you know what it is clearly?
There are four ghanas (compactnesses) namely Santati ghana, Samuha ghana, Kicca ghana and Arammana ghana; that hide the real natures of sankharas as mentioned in the Commentaries. Commentaries describe them only very briefly.
The meaning of first three ghanas are clear to many. But about arammana ghana, there seem to be multiple opinions or unclear opinions.
Dear Ekocare,
you can find a good explanation in the Visuddhimagga tika (Paramatthamanjusa).
On page 668 of the English translation Path Of purification (visuddhimagga translation), note 3 to XXI 4
‘Resolution of the compact’[ghana] is effected by resolving [what appears compact] in this way, ‘The earth element is one, the water element is another’ etc., distinguishing each one; and in this way, ‘Contact is one, feeling is another’ etc., distinguishing each one. ‘When the resolution of the compact is effected’ means that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial states have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite differences exist in such and such states’ functions, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object[arammana ghana] is assumed when, although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident” (Vism-mhþ 824).
So to explain about this. The object is conditioned and changing, the citta which takes that object is conditioned and changing. It is all void but it seems that objects last, it seems like the citta lasts…
Also venerable Bodhi translated the Commentary to the Suttanipata and also included notes from the tika:
Commentary:
: Just as, at the time of plowing, the plow with the plowshare yoked to it breaks up the compact earth and severs the network of roots, so at the time of insight, wisdom yoked with mindfulness breaks up compactness in regard to continuity, mass, function, and object, 558 and severs all the network of roots consisting in the defilements. And that is so only with respect to world-transcending wisdom, but the other mundane wisdom may also be included. 559 Hence he says: “Wisdom is my yoke and plow.””
Tika:
note 558: Vipassanākāle dhammānaṃ santatisamūhakiccārammaṇaghanaṃ bhindati. Spk-ṭ I 237 explains the distinctions here: “This is the distinction between compactness in regard to continuity and the others: Compactness in regard to continuity is the occurrence of things as if they constitute a unity because of the immediate succession of preceding and following phenomena. Compactness in regard to mass is the occurrence of things that appear as a unity because they are amassed as one. Compactness in regard to function is the occurrence of things as if they constitute a unity because of the difficulty of distinguishing their functions. Compactness in regard to object is the occurrence of things as if they constitute a unity because they have a single object.”
Dear Robert,
Many merits for answering. Actually I already read it and some of other modern Theras’ explanations.
The problem remains still is:
When the arammana is a rupa, it’s arammanaghana seems similar to santati, samuha and kicca ghanas of rupa.
When the arammana is a nama, it’s arammanaghana seems similar to santati, samuha and kicca ghanas of nama.
Still it seems similar to santati, samuha and kicca ghanas of nama.
So different people seem to intepret it differently.
Hi Ekocare,
If you don’t mind can you please explain how you see arammanaghana similar to santati, samuha and kicca.
If that is too much of a work, you could take your “arammana is a nama” case only and explain.
Please note ,I have the answer for this which I will reply after clearly understanding your question.
Ofcourse i would not reply with my view/opinion/interpretation but will point you to references and the lines relevant which will provide clarity (I think).
Also if it is not a problem for you , can you please share the article links or book names which you have read and found multiple opinions on this.I just want to see how others are understanding this.
Regards
The 4 aspects of ghana are somewhat related. However with regard to object consider what is happening (all the time). The objects are arising and falling away instantly but the object appears to last.
It may be that santatighana is placing focus on the cittta which experiences the object, while arammanaghana is about the object experienced - both are of course rising and falling away instantly.
Dear SammaSeeker,
Many merits for paying attention!
The below are what I found from the Texts.
Saṃyuttanikāya (ṭīkā) » Brāhmaṇasaṃyutta:
ekārammaṇavasena ekībhūtānamiva pavatti ārammaṇaghanatā.
Aṅguttaranikāya (ṭīkā) » Aparaaccharāsaṅghātavagga:
sārammaṇadhammānaṃ satipi ārammaṇakaraṇabhede ekato gayhamānā ārammaṇaghanatā.
Visuddhimagga-mahāṭīkā-2 » Paṭipadāñāṇadassanavisuddhiniddesa:
sārammaṇadhammānaṃ satipi ārammaṇakaraṇabhede ekato gayhamānā ārammaṇaghanatā
Rerukane Chandavimala Thera:
Arammanaghana is taking “seperate arammana-gahanas (object-graspings) of seperate minds” as one/ one mind. The way of taking “seperate object-graspings of seperately born multiple minds such as cakkhuvinnana, sampaticchana, santirana, votthapana, javana, tadarammana …etc” as a single vision, is arammanaghana.
(‘Vidarshana Bhavana Kramaya’ in Sinhala)
One of his modern followers:
It seems arammanaghana is about the different minds of a single Citta-vithi.
Another monk:
May be it is about the different minds of a single Citta-vithi because they all grasp the same object.
Pa auk Sayadaw:
Nama dhammas are sarammanika (object-grasper) dhammas. Rupa dhammas and Nibbana are anarammanika (non object-grasper) dhammas.Rupa has first three ghanas only. Nama has all the four ghanas.
Paauk Vipassana breaks down the Nama into two kinds as the Nama being discerned (object mentality) and the discerning Nama (subject mentality). Both kinds have first three ghanas.
But the three ghanas of subject mentality are altogether called by one name only - which is arammanaghana.
(Paauk Meditation Manual, page 39-40; Knowing and Seeing, page 52; Nama & D.O. Q&A at Tusita Hermitage Q1.)
Venerable Maggavihari:
I couldn’t read ven. maggavihari’s explanation yet.
Maybe Bhante @bksubhuti knows.
If we take the general meaning of the above Samyuttanikaya tika quote, then the arammanaghana seems to be the compactness of the arammana. Arammanas in vipassana are twofold as nama and rupa.
If we take the general meaning of the above other tikas’ quotes, then the arammanaghana is the compactness of nama.
In both cases arammanaghana seems to be of either a rupa or nama.
Not seeing their individual-characteristical or spacial differences seem to be samuhaghana. Not seeing their anicca or timing differences seems to be santatighana. Not seeing their individual-functional differences seems to be kiccaghana.
Any of nama dhammas characteristic or function is about arammana (about how they work with the arammana), because they always take an arammana.
It is very kind of you. Appreciate it so much. Many merits!
Hi Ekocare,
Let me pay homage to the Lord Buddha and the Dhamma he taught us and the elders who preyserved and gave us these commentaries .Any thanks only to them and blame to me.
Many thanks for taking your time to reply in detail.
your question is good and is in the right direction
because you want to see how they are different while you already found that they are related(similar).
You almost got it but probably the translation as ghana as compact and the below mentioned overlaps caused your question.
what I understood from your response is the two overlaps ,but you can see in the clarification below whether they are applicable or not.
1.you have applied “characteristic” for samuha-ghana as well as for arammana-ghana
2.you have applied function for kicca-ghana and arammana-ghana
Now to my clarification. Though it might seem like a big reply ,you can walk through the bold and see the differences and also how they are related real fast .
Those four ghanas teaching addresses common/related objective and also with different dhammas (eg:khandha,dhatu,ayatana).
I will just refer the lines through which you could get the differences/relation instead of providing lot of details which I believe you might already know.
First how they are different:
For santati-ghana: patisambhidamagga-atthakatha-227
nimittanti santatighanavinibbhogena niccasaññāya pahīnattā ārammaṇabhūtaṃ saṅkhāranimittaṃ yathābhūtaṃ jānāti. tena vuccati sammādassananti tena yathābhūtajānanena taṃ
For samūha-ghana: patisambhidamagga-atthakatha-227
samūhaghanavinibbhogena ubhayathāpi attasaññāya pahīnattā saṅkhāranimittañca vipākapavattañca yathābhūtaṃ jānāti.
For kicca-ghana:
visuddhimagga-mahatika-729
tathā tesaṃ tesaṃ dhammānaṃ kiccabhedassa satipi paṭiniyatabhāve ekato gayhamānā kiccaghanatā,
More clarity at vibhanga-anutika-229
ekappakārenevāti yathā cakkhādīnaṃ manāyatanassa paṭiniyatadassanādikiccānuvidhānato niyato ekappakāreneva paccayabhāvo, na evaṃ rūpāyatanādīnaṃ
For ārammaṇa-ghana:
visuddhimagga-mahatika:729
tathā sārammaṇadhammānaṃ satipi ārammaṇakaraṇabhede ekato gayhamānā ārammaṇaghanatā
Here sārammaṇadhammānaṃ definition can be found at dhammasanganipali-1191
katame dhammā sārammaṇā? vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, viññāṇakkhandho – ime dhammā sārammaṇā.
Second how they are related:
visuddhimagga-dutiyo bhago-paṭipadāñāṇadassanavisuddhiniddeso-upakkilesavimuttaudayabbayañāṇakathā-739
nānādhātuyo vinibbhujitvā ghanavinibbhoge kate anattalakkhaṇaṃ yāthāvasarasato upaṭṭhāti.
Now lets see in its atthakatha what is nānādhātuyo vinibbhujitvā and ghanavinibbhoge
visuddhimagga-dutiyo bhago-paṭipadāñāṇadassanavisuddhiniddesavaṇṇanā-upakkilesavimuttaudayabbayañāṇakathāvaṇṇanā-739
ghanavinibbhoge kateti samūhaghane, kiccārammaṇaghane ca pabhedite.
and
tā dhātūsu ñāṇena vinibbhujitvā dissamānā hatthena parimajjiyamāno pheṇapiṇḍo viya vilayaṃ gacchanti, “yathāpaccayaṃ pavattamānā suññā ete dhammā dhammamattā”ti anattalakkhaṇaṃ pākaṭataraṃ hoti. tena vuttaṃ “nānādhātuyo … pe … upaṭṭhātī”ti
Good luck in your quest
Regards
Dear Robert,
Many merits for replying.
It can be related. But, can two of them be the same?
If it is "the oneness of the object ", then how it can be conciliated with the below text quotes?
sārammaṇadhammānaṃ satipi ārammaṇakaraṇabhede ekato gayhamānā ārammaṇaghanatā.
katame dhammā sārammaṇā?vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, viññāṇakkhandho – ime dhammā sārammaṇā.
Do you know how this is different from Santati ghana?
Do you know why “the difference of the way of taking the object by Namadhammas” can’t be regarded as those Namadhammas’ Samuha ghana? or Kicca ghana?
What is the difference between 1 and 2? 1 and 3? 2 and 3? (regarding namadhammas)
Dear SammaSeeker,
Many many merits for the answer.
Am I correct if I list the differences like the below, according to the quotes given by you?
And also, may I get your help to fill in the blanks?
Santani ghana: For Anicca sanna
Samuha ghana: For Anatta sanna
Kicca ghana: …?
Arammana ghana: …?
Santani ghana: …?
Samuha ghana: For Dhatu
Kicca ghana: For Ayatana
Arammana ghana: For Khanda
As you described, those ghanas’ common objectives and difference of usage are understandable.
But, Could I know what exactly “the difference of definition” of Aramanaghana?
Many merits!
Hi Ekocare,
with respect to the mapping please find my reply below.
Correct
but
santati-ghana vinibbhoga is also a driver to get rid of atta-sañña .
I have given that nicca-sanna pahana reference to state how is it different from other ghanas while trying to achieve common goal.
Because of wrongly thinking as continuity one gets sassata-ditthi and one who has sassata-ditthi thinks like this.
Paṭisambhidamagga -mahāvaggo-diṭṭhikathā-sassatadiṭṭhiniddeso-138
So in Abhidhammatika-vibhanga-Suttantabhājanīyaṃ-Uddesavāravaṇṇanā , it is mentioned as below.
santatighanaggahaṇavasena citte attābhiniveso hotīti diṭṭhoghassa cittaṃ
Correct
Both ghana’s vinibbhoga helps to understand Anatta
visuddhimagga-dutiyo bhago-paṭipadāñāṇadassanavisuddhiniddeso-upakkilesavimuttaudayabbayañāṇakathā-739
nānādhātuyo vinibbhujitvā ghanavinibbhoge kate anattalakkhaṇaṃ yāthāvasarasato upaṭṭhāti.
visuddhimagga-dutiyo bhago-paṭipadāñāṇadassanavisuddhiniddesavaṇṇanā-upakkilesavimuttaudayabbayañāṇakathāvaṇṇanā-739
ghanavinibbhoge kateti samūhaghane, kiccārammaṇaghane ca pabhedite.
To answer this, at a high level it is khandha .
Upacaya+santati=jati
Abhidhammatthasaṅgaho - 6. Rūpaparicchedo - Rūpasamuddeso
jātirūpameva panettha upacayasantatināmena pavuccatīti ekādasavidhampetaṃ rūpaṃ aṭṭhavīsatividhaṃ hoti sarūpavasena.
and jati is defined as
MN 141 : khandhānaṁ pātubhāvo āyatanānaṁ paṭilābho,ayaṁ vuccatāvuso: ‘jāti
is partially correct as it will be Dhatu+Khanda
it is not how we need to understand this and it is my fault as I have given you a reference which is not helpful to understand how is it different and only helpful to understand sarammana dhamma .
Please see below for the reply
If I have to list the difference using the same terminology I used for others ,then per my understanding it is 5-bahira-ayatana
However using the one which you have already studied before even you started the thread,
ekārammaṇavasena ekībhūtānamiva pavatti ārammaṇaghanatā
I understand it as 5-ārammaṇa.
I have filled in the blanks but I am not sure if understanding arammana-ghana gave you clarity on entire ghana based practice or not. I suspect this because you have used “for” in
So even though you might know ,just adding that ghana-gahana way of thinking has led to atta-view and ghana-vinibbhoga will help us out of it and each ghana-vinibbhoga has its distinct way to address it .That is where they all have similar goal and related but have different approach to ghana-vinibbhoga.
Also if I may ask if you are from Srilanka and if you do not mind me direct messaging you
I have a question which i can group message you along with Robert and Ven.Subhuti who can moderate the group message if you think I am not discussing Dhamma matter.
All the best
Regards
I think you need to start thinking in terms of kalapa, nama moments (cittakhana) and mental processes vithis to fully grasp this on a practical applicatoin.
The pa-auk manuals will help you understand this. It seems they have been mentioned here.