What Are The Disadvantages and Advantages of Women (Red Rot)?

Do the commentaries ever elaborate why allowing females to ordain would shorten the lifespan of the true Dhamma?

The first explanation the Buddha provides in the suttas involving bandits targeting female households certainly makes sense and doesnt need much explanation as this concept can even be understood in the modern western world where society (mostly) treats the genders with equality. Even with the massive progress in equal rights women have made in the past 100 years, its still pretty much understood in today’s society that women are much more likely to get attacked and robbers would certainly prefer to attack a household of women than a household of men or of a mixture, thus making it harder for such households to exist.

However the other two analogies seem to be ancient agricultural analogies few people in the modern world would understand. I certainly beleive if i that if i lived in a society as sexist as ancient india and actually understood how those agricultural diseases operated it’d make more sense. Do the commentaries ever elaborate on this, or even explain what “red rot” and “white bones” was?

“Ānanda, if females had not gained the going forth from the lay life to homelessness in the teaching and training proclaimed by the Realized One, the spiritual life would have lasted long. The true teaching would have remained for a thousand years. But since they have gained the going forth, now the spiritual life will not last long. The true teaching will remain only five hundred years.

It’s like those families with many women and few men. They’re easy prey for bandits and thieves. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.

It’s like a field full of rice. Once the disease called ‘white bones’ attacks, it doesn’t last long. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.

It’s like a field full of sugar cane. Once the disease called ‘red rot’ attacks, it doesn’t last long. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.

As a man might build a dyke around a large lake as a precaution against the water overflowing, in the same way as a precaution I’ve prescribed the eight principles of respect as not to be transgressed so long as life lasts.”

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Interesting topic, I wonder if it is related to kamma…

Like Sakka position can never be a female, likewise Sammasambuddhas, Paccekabuddhas, Cakkavati kings, Mara Devaputta…

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I’m pretty sure classical Theravada considers the female state to be the result of kamma, it’s even pretty heavily implied in some jatakas. It’s only modern EBT and Buddhist feminists who deny this. I think this makes perfect sense given that women have unique things about them that cause them suffering. Such as child birth, menstruation, and societial patriarchy (which for most of human history was significantly worse than it is now). To deny that the female state is the result of kamma is to live in a fantasy world where patriarchy doesn’t exist and to pretend that women don’t menstruate or suffer from it, or to assume that being born a woman is the result of some kind of coincidence that just happens to inflict suffering on a group.

I’m all for equal rights but this is simply the classical understanding. Being poor is the result of kamma. That does not mean we should treat poor people badly. The female state is the result of karma. This does not mean we should treat women badly. I have various innate health issues, which is likely the result of kamma I did in the past. I am not inferior to people who do not have these health issues. Everyone has been a woman, a man, an animal, a deva, and a hell being.

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I wrote an extensive article on the third precept, but consolidated it to a pdf because the internet cannot handle large docs, especially on this issue. In one section I talk about how the recent development of the pill changed everything for women and women’s rights. It is true.
You can read the doc here

There is an Italian Sayalay, who requested to be my friend, she is young and has the looks of most young women and therefore has 50,000 followers, but I decided to accept her request because she might help spread some of my writings. I’m not sure if she is a lay person or a Sayalay because she has a mix of pictures. After I accepted, she posted about how being a woman is not bad kamma and she disagrees with that belief. When I mentioned that Birth Control, specifically the Pill was a recent invention that allows for the woman to block many of issues that comes with being a woman, I got blocked. :rofl:
And that is the modern way to deal with things.

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What’s ironic is most women who deny this believe in male privilege (which does exist as patriarchy, although not as much so nowadays, but also in biological advantages like not having to suffer from periods, childbirth, and being physically stronger generally) Yet for some reason it doesn’t occur to them that most advantages ppl have in life are due to kamma. So they believe they are at a disadvantage compared to men for being women, but don’t believe it’s due to kamma even tho kamma causes almost all disadvantages.

So either you don’t believe men are at an advantage and therefore male privelage doesn’t exist, or you don’t believe in kamma…

And like I said. I think the movement towards women’s rights in the past 100 years has been a fantastic development for humanity. A poor person is not “inferior” to a rich person nor should they be treated badly, they just have disadvantages due to their lack of dana merit. In the same way a woman is by no means inferior to a man nor should they be treated badly, they just have disadvantages and have unique sufferings due to their past kamma.

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There is also truth to the saying
“Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus”

It might be something the Buddha saw.
Pa-auk is short of teachers. They surely have tried women teachers, but it didn’t work out. There were many problems which I cannot get into. They now have an unwritten policy that female monastics cannot teach at pa-auk. Sayalay Dipankara has been successful and maybe the only popular female monastic teacher. She was a teacher before this policy, but she is also on her own and fully independent. However, she often publicly talks about her attainments which are prohibited to speak of by bhikkhus. It is true that sayalays not have such rules, but the Buddha explained that a bhikkhu doing this is like a prostitute showing her private parts. Nevertheless there is no rule for this in the sayalay world.

Nevertheless, Shaila Catherine has been successful and is often recommended as “The Teacher” for Westerners who want to find a teacher in the USA.

The Buddha has also made extra requirements for teaching bhikkhunis. The teacher is called an Ovadaācariya. We also have many rules for bhikkhus teaching and interacting with bhikkhunis.

It would.be good if women’s monastic rights activists actually read original texts instead of EBT vinaya books. Some sayalays are actually vocally against. I recently read a translated article by a sayalay called “Why I don’t wear red”. Sayalay Dipankara was invited to be a bhikkhuni when there was a “seniority rush” but she refused. What is “seniority rush?” The newly ordained bhikkhuni’s seniority would trump the other nuns immediately (if it were accepted). Therefore when the big ordination came, all of them were ordained in the order according to their previous to monastic years. That was why there was a “seniority rush” and many nuns ordained all at once. It was not the main reason, but if you were thinking about trying out the shift, that was the big moment to do it.

The rules for bhikkhunis are quite restrictive. They cannot sleep alone or travel alone. If they do it is a heavy offense that requires 2 weeks of losing status and rehab-living.

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The femininity is not like poverty and illness where the mind doesn’t affect much. Female birth is not just female body. Female bhavanga has a certain capacity that limits the higher levels of wisdom/concentration/virtue etc.

According to the AN Ekakanipata Atthanapali commentary:

  • A woman can’t fulfil Bodhisatta Parami while living as a woman, let alone Buddhahood.
  • A woman can’t get a birth in Mahabrahma realm. They can only get birth in the lower Brahmaparisajja realm. (both for first jhana)

According to many Suttas, Jatakas and Atthakathas:

  • A Woman has more kilesas than a man. (majority/generally)

This shows that there is a lack/ limit in female mind. ( :grinning:a glass ceiling)

This can be understood by looking at the minds of children/dvihetukas …etc. They are also human beings with wisdom, but their wisdom has some juniority.

Yet according to classical theravada:

  • Some women are greater than many men.
  • Mother is higher than father.
  • Jati is Manussa for both men and women.
  • Some women can attain maggaphalas.
  • Not always the man is wise.

As usual the classical theravada has an divided answer

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I wonder if a woman has a human or Devi can enter as a male to the Mahabrahma realm, considering it would be a new life and also garuka kamma if maintained until the end of that life.
Women are not bound to their gender from life to life. Only within this life except in some odd cases mentioned in the commentary about spontaneous gender change.

It is definitely wrong to assume that females are always female and males are always males. You will see in many pa-auk yogi lives that one is not always male and one is not always human. And just for the continuation of clarifying myths… no mandatory bardo either.

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Yes, there is even a jataka where Ananda was born as a princess. As the Buddha said, it is hard to find someone who has not been your mother in a prior existence, and essentially nobody has not been a woman before.

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If my memory is correct,

Both men and women (in previous life) are born in any Brahma realm as men (without sexual organs). They get their previous gender again when they will be born back in the Kama world.

Women (with fisrt jhana) can only go to Brahmaparisajja while Men (with fisrt jhana) can go to Brahmaparisajja or Brahmapurohita or Mahabrahma depend on his mental strength.

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that sounds right to me. I read that somewhere as well. Although only the women who still have remaining kamma to be women are born as women again, if the kamma is exhausted on the last life they are born a man after thier lifespan in the brahma realm is over.

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I observe that you rely on Ven. Sujato’s translation. In this Sutta passage, Sujato translates the two diseases as follows:

  • (1) Setaṭṭhikā as “white bones.”
  • (2) Mañjiṭṭhikā as “red rot.”

Nevertheless, one must exercise caution and refrain from relying any translation as definitive without due consideration. I urge you to take the following into account, and upon doing so, the matter will become clear to you.

In The Book of the Gradual Sayings (5 Volume Set), tr. F. L. Woodward & E. M. Hare (1955; the edition in my possession), the page numbering may differ across printings, but the general reference is (PTS 4.274–4.279). Specifically, in Vol IV (E.M. Hare, trans.), the two terms are translated as follows:

  • (1) “white-as-bones.”
  • (2) “red-rust.”

The term “bones” appears in both translations, yet it is absent in the others. It is likely that Ven. Sujato also drew upon the previous translation for this inclusion in his own rendition.

In Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation in The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, these terms are rendered as:

  • (1) “the bleaching disease.”
  • (2) “the rusting disease.”

In contrast, Ven. Nyanatiloka Mahāthera’s German translation of the Aṅguttara presents the terms as:

  • (1) “Röte.”
  • (2) “Mehltau.”

According to the Collins German Dictionary (1st ed., 1994), (1) corresponds to “Redness” in English (see p. 413), and (2) corresponds to “mildew” (see p. 309).

In another translation, that of Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu, both terms are rendered as:

  • (1) “white blight”
  • (2) “rust disease.”

Therefore, you may not find what you’re looking for if you rely solely on the translation you mentioned.

With regard to the interpretation of the Commentaries, the excerpt from the Manorathapūraṇī (Aṅguttaranikāya commentary), abbreviated as “Mp,” is presented for your examination. Peruse the following;

  1. Setaṭṭhikā rogajāti nipatati. Mp: “A kind of insect pierces the stalk and enters the middle of the reed. When the stalk is pierced, the sap comes out and cannot reach the top of the paddy plant.”


1746. Mañjiṭṭhikā rogajāti nipatati. Mp: “The internal reddening of the sugar cane.”

The translation is particularly by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi and is included in the “Notes” section, which I numbered them (drawn from the same source previously referenced).

It is essential to dispel the misconception that allowing women to ordain will shorten the Dhamma’s lifespan, as this notion contradicts the very commentaries that address it. Consult Aṅ-a 3, page 238 (the Romanized Burmese Edition).

  1. Mp (Ce): ”By this he shows the following: ‘When a causeway is not built around a large reservoir, whatever water would have remained there if the causeway had first been built does not remain because there is no causeway. So too, these principles of respect have been prescribed in advance, before an incident has arisen, for the purpose of preventing transgression. If they had not been prescribed, then, because women have gone forth, the good Dhamma would have lasted five hundred years. But because they have been laid down in advance, it will continue another five hundred years and thus last for the thousand years originally stated.’ And this expression ‘a thousand years’ is said with reference to arahants who have attained the analytic knowledges (paṭisambhidāpabhedappattakhīṇāsavānaṃ vasen’eva vuttaṃ). Following this, for another thousand years, there appear dry-insight arahants; for another thousand years, non-returners; for another thousand years, once-returners; and for another thou-sand years, stream-enterers. Thus the good Dhamma of pen-etration (paṭivedhasaddhammo) will last five thousand years. The Dhamma of learning (pariyattidhammo) will also last this long. For without learning, there is no penetration, and as long as there is learning, there is penetration.”

◉ Translator’s endnote (Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi):

From the above, we can see that according to the commentary, the allowance for women to go forth will not shorten the life span of the Dhamma; this is because the Buddha laid down the eight principles of respect, which serve as the dyke or causeway.

The esteemed commentary elucidates that the Blessed One’s pronouncement concerning the diminished lifespan of the Dhamma must be comprehended as a conditional foretelling. In the absence of the noble principles (the eight Garudhammas), the endurance of the Dhamma would indeed have been imperiled. However, in the presence of these sacred edicts, the Dhamma’s vitality is steadfastly secured. Thus, the granting of ordination to women does not, in and of itself, precipitate a shortening of the Dhamma’s lifespan. Rather, it is the Buddha’s profound foresight in instituting these protective doctrines that guarantees the Dhamma shall endure, unaltered in its essence, as originally intended.

Moreover, the Buddha’s declaration that the Dhamma’s lifespan would be reduced to a mere five centuries due to the ordination of women is mitigated by the establishment of the eight Garudhammas—principles of respect that serve as safeguards to uphold the integrity of the Dhamma. These principles ensure that, despite the inclusion of women in the Sangha, the Dhamma shall persist for a thousand years, upheld by arahants possessing profound analytical wisdom. With each succeeding thousand-year cycle, the Dhamma is further extended, its endurance marked by varying levels of spiritual attainment: dry-insight arahants, non-returners, once-returners, and stream-enterers. In this manner, the Dhamma will flourish for a total of five thousand years, with each successive generation of practitioners preserving and transmitting the noble teachings, even with the inclusion of women in the Sangha.

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Thanks! i actually eventually got this answer elsewhere in the meantime. Yes, it seems the commentary clarifies that it didnt shorten Buddhism’s lifespan, seemingly because by laying down the Garudhammas he prevented too many women from ordaining and letting the Sangha become “like a clan of many women and few men, which is easily destroyed by thieves and bandits”.

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If someone is born as a woman, is it solely because of bad kamma or attachment? Some women may have more comfortable lives than men. They can still have more wealth, higher social status, etc.

It’s a complex issue with many variables that would just be too difficult to work out mentally i think.

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To be born as a human has to be result of kusala kamma. While the texts indicate that it can be a superior kamma to be born as man, would we prefer birth as a poor, ugly, dumb man or a rich, beautiful, wise woman. These other factors are also due to kamma.

Samantapasidika I 274,18: imesu tāva dvīsu liṅgesu purisaliṅgaṃ uttamaṃ itthiliṅgaṃ hīnaṃ.
Now, among these two genders, the masculine gender is superior, the feminine gender is inferior.

Women can attain the stages of enlightenment as much as men - see the Therigatha for accounts of wise women.

MN135

Majjhima Nikāya
135. The Shorter Exposition of Action
“Master Gotama, what is the cause and condition why human beings are seen to be inferior and superior? For people are seen to be short-lived and long-lived, sickly and healthy, ugly and beautiful, uninfluential and influential, poor and wealthy, low-born and high-born, stupid and wise. What is the cause and condition, Master Gotama, why human beings are seen to be inferior and superior?”

“Student, beings are owners of their actions, heirs of their actions; they originate from their actions, are bound to their actions, have their actions as their refuge. It is action that distinguishes beings as inferior and superior.”

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Birth and what type is always because of kamma. But also because of wishing coupled with knowledge or lack of knowledge using the kammic force of the previous act. Often people are attached to their own sex and do not see themselves switching. LGBT are the exception to this.

Transmigrating sex surely happens and is seen in quite a few Pa-Auk yogis, not to mention the transmigration coming from different lower species. You are stuck on the idea of good or bad for human existence but we know how rare the human birth is compared to all other lower beings who never get the chance. Some don’t believe this. A big red flag in the book Lifetimes, by Dr. F. Lenz is that everyone is the same sex and species (if I remember correctly from the 90’s).

The big concern would not be who has lower kamma, but the great wonderful kamma to be human. Comparing which is better while ignoring the level of achievement of being a human is a shame. Probably the best thing to do is contemplate, what one does with their human life rather than who has better past kamma.

SN 20.2
PTS: S ii 263
CDB i 706
Nakhasikha Sutta: The Tip of the Fingernail

translated from the Pali by

Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Staying at Savatthi. Then the Blessed One, picking up a little bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monks, “What do you think, monks? Which is greater: the little bit of dust I have picked up with the tip of my fingernail, or the great earth?”

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It doesn’t even count. It’s no comparison. It’s not even a fraction, this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail, when compared with the great earth.

“In the same way, monks, few are the beings reborn among human beings. Far more are those reborn elsewhere. Thus you should train yourselves: ‘We will live heedfully.’ That’s how you should train yourselves.”

All that said. To become a bhikkhu, you have to be male. This might be the last life where one gets the chance for a very long time. I hope you get the chance, especially if you are male to take the opportunity to do the best thing you can be doing.

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Thank you for this response, Venerable Sir.

I still wish to ordain as a monk, even more so after your excellent post. In the past, I was unsure of whether I can observe all the rules and last long in the monk life, but I’ve decided to believe in myself.

Now that I’ve thought about the Bodhisattas’ renunciation more, I can’t imagine why I would not do it unless I was in the deva worlds. I’ve always been inspired by the Bodhisatta renouncing his wealth and kingdoms in many past lives.

It feels like the stars are aligning because I am a male, a Buddhist born in a Buddhist country, and has faith in the Triple Gems, and has the desire to ordain. This life is a very great opportunity to practice the Dhamma fully and attain it. I hope I can attain the fruits of the ascetic life as mentioned in the Sāmaññaphalasutta.

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This discussion made me remember of a situation related to past lives.

Story of Kukkuṭamitta the Hunter

“The birth of a worldling, who has not discerned the Four Truths is burdensome.” (For he is likely to be reborn into a lowly family despite the fact that, that very life is his last (pacchimabhāvika ): for he has not overcome the risk of falling into a lowly state.) Therefore the deva who had been the husband of the merchant’s daughter, on his return to the human world, was reborn in a family of hunters.

Kukkuṭamitta the hunter had enough merit to attain sotāpatti-phala in that very life. But that didn’t prevent him from being reborn into a family of hunters. In summary, the most important thing is to secure a good rebirth and to have the capacity to understand the Dhamma. All other factors—gender, social class, physical appearance, place of birth—are secondary.

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Yes, and Soma the nun is one example:

At Savatthi. Then, early in the morning, Soma the nun put on her robes and, taking her bowl & outer robe, went into Savatthi for alms. When she had gone for alms in Savatthi and had returned from her alms round, after her meal she went to the Grove of the Blind to spend the day. Having gone deep into the Grove of the Blind, she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day’s abiding.

Then Mara the Evil One, wanting to arouse fear, horripilation, & terror in her, wanting to make her fall away from concentration, approached her & addressed her in verse:

That
which is
to be attained by seers
— the place so very hard to reach —
women
can’t
— with their two-inch discernment —
attain.

Then the thought occurred to Soma the nun: “Now who has recited this verse — a human being or a non-human one?” Then it occurred to her: “This is Mara the Evil One, who has recited this verse wanting to arouse fear, horripilation, & terror in me, wanting to make me fall away from concentration.”

Then, having understood that “This is Mara the Evil One,” she replied to him in verses:

What
difference
does being a woman make
when the mind’s well-centered,
when knowledge is progressing,
seeing clearly, rightly,
into the Dhamma.

Anyone who thinks
‘I’m a woman’
or ‘a man’
or ‘Am I anything at all?’ —
that’s who Mara’s
fit to address.

Then Mara the Evil One — sad & dejected at realizing, “Soma the nun knows me” — vanished right there.

https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn05/sn05.002.than.html

Renaldo

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