Vitakka and sankappa

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Post by santa100 » Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:10 am

Ceisiwr wrote:“Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti, ārammaṇametaṁ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.

Which is a better translation:…

SN 12.38 - Bodhi’s translation wrote:At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing of consciousness.
And he provided the reason behind his “basis” word choice in the footnote:
“This becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness”(arammanam etam hoti): These various states such as volition become a condition; for here the word arammana is intended as condition (paccaya; that is, here arammana does not signify an object of consciousness, the usual meaning in the Abhidhamma). For the maintenance of consciousness (viññanassa thitiya): for the purpose of maintaining the kammic consciousness. When there is this condition, there is a support for the establishing of consciousness (patittha viññanassa hoti), i.e., for the establishing of that kammic consciousness [Spk-pt: it has a capacity to yield fruit in one’s mental continuum]. When that (kammic) consciousness is established and has come to growth (tasmim patitthite viññame … virulhe): when, having impelled kamma, it has grown, produced roots, through its ability to precipitate rebirth, there is the production of future renewed existence, i.e., production consisting in renewed existence.

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robertk

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Post by robertk » Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:14 pm

santa100 wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:10 am

Ceisiwr wrote:“Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti, ārammaṇametaṁ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.

Which is a better translation:…
SN 12.38 - Bodhi’s translation wrote:At Savatthī. “Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing of consciousness.
And he provided the reason behind his “basis” word choice in the footnote:
“This becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness”(arammanam etam hoti): These various states such as volition become a condition; for here the word arammana is intended as condition (paccaya; that is, here arammana does not signify an object of consciousness, the usual meaning in the Abhidhamma). For the maintenance of consciousness (viññanassa thitiya): for the purpose of maintaining the kammic consciousness. When there is this condition, there is a support for the establishing of consciousness (patittha viññanassa hoti), i.e., for the establishing of that kammic consciousness [Spk-pt: it has a capacity to yield fruit in one’s mental continuum]. When that (kammic) consciousness is established and has come to growth (tasmim patitthite viññame … virulhe): when, having impelled kamma, it has grown, produced roots, through its ability to precipitate rebirth, there is the production of future renewed existence, i.e., production consisting in renewed existence.

And I think an indication of why intention is not a factor of the noble eight fold path.

http://www.abhidhamma.org
https://classicaltheravada.org/
https://www.youtube.com/user/AlanWeller
MN 26 Pāsarāsisuttaṃ
Pāli: So kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, tāvatakeneva oṭṭhapahatamattena lapitalāpanamattena ñāṇavādañca vadāmi theravādañca, ‘jānāmi passāmī’ti ca paṭijānāmi ahañceva aññe ca.
Cmy: Theravādanti thirabhāvavādaṃ, thero ahametthāti etaṃ vacanaṃ .

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Ceisiwr

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Re: Basis for Consciousness or Object of Consciousness

Post by Ceisiwr » Tue Feb 15, 2022 2:43 pm

robertk wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:14 pm
And I think an indication of why intention is not a factor of the noble eight fold path.
It’s the 2nd factor, no?

"For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an non-deceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has a non-deceptive nature."

  • Dhātuvibhaṅga sutta

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Re: Basis for Consciousness or Object of Consciousness

Post by robertk » Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:10 pm

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 2:43 pm

robertk wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 12:14 pm
And I think an indication of why intention is not a factor of the noble eight fold path.
It’s the 2nd factor, no?
the second factor is samma-sankappa. Sankappa is vitakka - thinking.

The Dispeller o[ Delusion

(1) Right Thinking
552. ln the description of Right Thinking, “escaped from sense desire” is nekkhamma-saiikappo ( 104.44) ( “thinking of renunciation “escaped from ill will” is avyäpäda-sankappo (“ihinking o[ non-ill-» ill’): “escaped from cruelty” is avihimsä-san kappo ( “thinking of non-cruelt y ). Herein. applied thought of renunciation
{118J arises destroying and cutting away the foundation of applied thought of sense desire; likewise applied thought of non-ill-Wlll for applied thought of ill will and applied thought of non-cruelty for applied thought of cruelty. Applied thought of renunciation arises as the opposite of applied thought of sense desire, and applied thought of non-ill-will and non-cruelty [as the respective opposites] of applied thought of ill will and cruelty.
553. Herein the meditator, for the purpose of destroying the foun-dation of applied thought of sense desire, comprehends either the applied thought of sense desire or any other formation. Then at the moment of insight, thinking which is associated with insight arises in him effecting the destroying and the cutting-away of the foundation of applied thought of sense desire through substitution by opposite qualities. Pursuing insight, he reaches the path. Then, at the moment of the path, thinking which is associated with the path arises in him effecting the destroying and the cutting-away of the foundation of applied thought of sense desire through cutting off. For the purpose of destroying the foundation of ill will, he comprehends either applied thought of iii will or any other for- mation; and for the purpose of destroying the foundation of applied thought of cruelty [he comprehends] either applied thought of cru- elty or any other formation. [And repeating:] “Then at the moment of insight” and so on, all should be construed as before.
554. But among the 38 objects classified in the … there is no single meditation subject which is not opposed to the three beginning with applied thought of sense desire. But it is the first jhäna in the
foul, firstly, that is particularly opposed to applied thought of sense desire, and the triad and tetrad ofjhänas in amity which are opposed to applied thought of ill will, and the triad and tetrad of jhänas in compassion which are opposed to applied thought of cruelty.
555. Therefore, in one who has entered upon jhäna by doing preliminary work on the foul, at the time of attainment thinking which is associated with jhäna arises and is opposed to applied
thought of sense desire by suppressing it. In one who is establishing insight by making the jhäna the basis for it, at the moment of insight thinking which is associated with insight arises and is opposed to applied thought of sense desire by substitution by opposite qualities. In one who attains the path by pursuing insight, at the moment of the path thinking which is associated with the path arises and is opposed to applied thought of sense desire by cutting
off. Being this arisen it should be understood to be called thinking
of renunciation. But [saying:] “In one who has entered upon jhäna by doing the preliminary work on amity; in one who has entered upon jhäna by doing the preliminary work on compassion” and so on, all should be construed as before. Being thus arisen it should be understood to be called thinking of non-iii-will, {119] to be called thinking of non-cruelty.
Thus these, namely, thinking of renunciation and so on, are multiple in the prior stage because of the multiplicity of arising through insight and jhäna. But at the moment of the path, profitable thinking arises singly fulfilling the path factor by accomplishing non-arising because of cutting away the foundation of the unprof- itable thinking which had arisen in these three instances. This is Right Thinking

http://www.abhidhamma.org
https://classicaltheravada.org/
https://www.youtube.com/user/AlanWeller
MN 26 Pāsarāsisuttaṃ
Pāli: So kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, tāvatakeneva oṭṭhapahatamattena lapitalāpanamattena ñāṇavādañca vadāmi theravādañca, ‘jānāmi passāmī’ti ca paṭijānāmi ahañceva aññe ca.
Cmy: Theravādanti thirabhāvavādaṃ, thero ahametthāti etaṃ vacanaṃ .

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Re: Basis for Consciousness or Object of Consciousness

Post by robertk » Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:28 pm

also from dispeller:

441

l. Also as regards Right View and Right Thinking, understand ing cannot of its own nature determine an object as “impermanent, painful, no-self’, but with applied thought giving [assistance] by repeatedly beating [upon the object] it can. How? Just as a money- changer, having had a coin placed in his hand {92J and being desirous of looking at it on all sides equally, cannot turn it over with the power of his eye only, but by turning it over with his fingers he is able to look at it on all sides; likewise understanding cannot of its own nature determine an object as impermanent, etc., but with applied thought with its characteristic of focussing the mind and its function of striking and threshing, as it were beating and turning over, it can take what is given and determine it. Therefore Right View only is included here in the understanding group as being of the same kind, but Right Thinking is included because of its action [of assisting].

http://www.abhidhamma.org
https://classicaltheravada.org/
https://www.youtube.com/user/AlanWeller
MN 26 Pāsarāsisuttaṃ
Pāli: So kho ahaṃ, bhikkhave, tāvatakeneva oṭṭhapahatamattena lapitalāpanamattena ñāṇavādañca vadāmi theravādañca, ‘jānāmi passāmī’ti ca paṭijānāmi ahañceva aññe ca.
Cmy: Theravādanti thirabhāvavādaṃ, thero ahametthāti etaṃ vacanaṃ .

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Re: Basis for Consciousness or Object of Consciousness

Post by robertk » Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:09 pm

from the Vibhanga (book of Analysis ) translation by Sayadaw Thittila

https://suttacentral.net/vb12/en/thittila

565 . ‘.
Therein what is initial application? That which is mentation,
thinking, thought, fixation, focussing, application of the mind,
right thought. This is called initial application.
the pali

https://suttacentral.net/vb12/pli/ms?la … ript=latin
Tattha katamo vitakko ? 92.2Yo takko vitakko saṅkappo appanā byappanā cetaso abhiniropanā sammāsaṅkappo — ayaṁ vuccati “vitakko”.

as we see sammasankappo is defined as vitakko.