Venerable Channa ( suicide)

Textual Scholarship
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Channa became an arahat after using the knife.
The Book of the Six Sense Bases )
p. 1406 connected discourses bhikkhu bodhi

52 Spk: Channa replied to Sariputtas questions by ascribing
arahantship to himself, but Sariputta, while knowing that
he was still a worldling, just kept quiet. Mahacunda, however,
gave him an exhortation to convince him of this.
53 This “teaching of the Blessed One” is at Ud 81,&10. Spk
explains the connection between the teaching and the present
situation thus: For one who is dependent (nissitassa):
“dependent” on account of craving, conceit, and views; there
is wavering (calitam): palpitation. As Channa is unable to
endure the arisen pain, there is now the palpitation of one
who isn’t free from the grip of such thoughts as “I am in
pain, the pain is mine.” By this, he is telling him, “You’re still
a worldling.” No inclination (natr): no inclination of craving.
No coming by way of rebirth, no going by way of death. This
itself is the end of su#ering: this itself is the end, the termination,
the limit, of the suffering of defilements and of the suffering
of the round.

54 Spk: He cut his jugular vein and just then the fear of death
entered him. As the sign of his rebirth destiny appeared, he
realized he was still a worldling and his mind became agi-
tated. He set up insight, discerned the formations, and
reaching arahantship, he attained final Nibbana as a
“same-header” (samasisi; see I, n. 312).
55 Spk: Although this declaration (of blamelessness) was
made while Channa was still a worldling, as his attainment
of final Nibbina followed immediately, the Buddha
answered by referring to that very declaration

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One of the typical “controversial” suttas that suttantas cry “foul” on even after reading the commentary which is appropirately translated in the footnotes.

But can a person become afraid of death and practice during that time.?
Well bleeding to death is a slower death and there is time to think of things and practice.

This is not always the case, and monks are always against suicide (so don’t do it).
BUT…

Psychology Today had this to say

How do survivors usually feel after a suicide attempt?

The emotions that follow a suicide attempt can vary widely—from relief and hopefulness to sadness, anger, or regret. Some suicide survivors report feeling immediate second thoughts after the attempt, followed by an intense feeling of relief when they realized they’d survived. Some feel as if they’ve been given a new lease on life, and are able to return to their lives with a greater sense of purpose and gratitude; others report feeling as if a burden has been lifted—especially if they had been keeping their mental health challenges or suicidal thoughts secret from their loved ones—or as if they’ve been “snapped out” of their despair.

The link above is pasted here.

1. He regretted the jump immediately. I first heard about Kevin Hines several years ago in a New Yorker article about suicidal bridge jumpers who miraculously survived. Kevin, like many others, had second thoughts as soon as his feet left the railing. I met him in person at a film screening in fall 2019.

It seems that those who survive on average do not commit suicide again.
Different people react differently of course. But I’m just showing that there was time to practice with that method of suicide that was used.

GPT 5 says:

First aid – If pressure is applied quickly and emergency care is prompt, survival is possible. Without intervention, exsanguination from a jugular cut can cause unconsciousness in 1–3 minutes and death in 3–5 minutes on average.

So with direct pressure to stop the bleeding, there could even be more time. I’m just saying it is not totally impossible. I think that many of the suttanta people who cry “foul” and think it is impossible assume that the suicide was instant for this case. However, profound things can happen when there is a near to death moment. That is why we are supposed to contemplate our own death and this is a valid practice, such as the weavers daughter. People change when they can see the clock ticking. There is less to be attached to, there is definitely as sense of urgency. Suicide will likely lead one to the lower realms due to dying in a bad mental state. It is likely that “dark” signs appeared to him and he had even a stronger urgency. Lastly, he was burn in the time of the Buddha and a monk. The parami was abnormally high, and we can confirm that with his attainment as well.

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Yes.

It also shows the rapidity of the arising and ceasing of nama and rupa. From the time he cut his throat to the death moment would have been brief ( as you noted Venerable) but even during that time there were countless sense door and mind door processes - enough for the wise to penetrate Dhamma.

A reason that doubt wonders if this is possible is because we still see the ‘world’ in terms of beings and things - and these last for long periods. But the world in reality - so we learn- is only momentary conditioned elements

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Statistically this is not true. It is actually very hard to kill yourself and for many people it takes practice, for lack of a better word. Unless there are other risk factors such as prior experience with pain endurance, etc.

Although I am loath to use LLMs as a knowledge source, it is quite definitive:

Q: does the risk of suicide increase or decrease after the first attempt?

A: Research consistently shows that a prior suicide attempt is one of the strongest predictors of future suicide. Statistics vary, but large population studies suggest:

  • Lifetime risk: People who have attempted suicide once are significantly more likely to attempt again compared to those with no history.

  • Short-term risk: The first year after an attempt—especially the first few months—is the highest-risk period for another attempt or death by suicide.

  • Long-term: The elevated risk persists for many years, though it can be reduced with effective mental health treatment, social support, and addressing underlying causes.

I’m sure the regret/relief phenomenon is real, it’s just not universal.

This is kind of besides the point of the OP, but we do have a few cases of failed/aborted attempts, e.g. Thag6.6 Sappadāsa, Thig5.3 Sīhā, Vv50 Rajjumālā. From the first two it’s easy to imagine someone having attainments in the moments directly after the action taken that leads to their death, especially exsanguination.

Back to the OP topic, Can you give the bare bones argument the sutanta folks use regarding this sutta? I’m not trying to debate at all, I’m just unfamiliar.

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Actually you did not find a reliable source to find the right statistics.. Furthermore, you asked the wrong questions. I will explain how you got the answer and give you reliable statistics.. Even google knows these.

Here is your info:

While I have heard that stat as well, that those who have attempted are likely to try again, but that is just a factor. So if 20% will try again, that is huge especially if we are talking about potential success (death). So basically, it is true. They are highly likely to try again but only within that set compared to the rest of the world. But that is misleading like women not making the same salaries as men (because they have different jobs) or Wine being good for health (because of demographics of the study)

But attempting suicide among the general population is not so common. Therefore by taking a selected group, and saying 20% will try again, you can easily say it is a huge past factor. But in actuality it is not common to try again.

Need a reliable ref? How about Harvard edu?

Approximately 7% (range: 5-11%) of attempters eventually died by suicide, approximately 23% reattempted non-fatally, and 70% had no further attempts.

But there is more. The Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco is the #1 location for suicides.

The Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco has the regrettable distinction of being the number one spot for suicide in the world.
…
In 1978, Seiden13 did a famous study of people who were prevented from jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. He gathered follow-up data on people who were physically restrained from jumping by the California Highway Patrol or workers on the bridge. There were 515 such people between 1937 and 1971. Seiden found that, in 1978, 94% were still alive or had died of natural causes, and only 6% had committed suicide or died in accidents suspicious for suicide. His study supports the notion that suicide is preventable and that if people are prevented from committing suicide, they are not inevitably going to complete suicide in the future. In fact, most people who survive a suicide attempt do not end up committing suicide later.14

Need a ref for that too? How about Psychiatric Times

There is a book you should read called “Thinking Fast and Slow”. Kahneman won the Nobel Prize and he explains bias studies.

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Any way, can you address the issue related to the OP?

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I thought the argument is clear and well researched. There is not much more to say.

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I meant this. What are they crying foul on?

Edit: Is it that that without the commentary they try to say that Arahants can commit suicide?

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I think they believe that for arahants and other less attained ariyas.

And that would add validity to the late ven Nyanavira The suttanta hero who killed himself.

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Yes, many seem to believe that.

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