The temporal "size" and divisibility of discrete citta and rūpa moments

[Paulo]

• The “Size” of a Single Citta: Does a present moment of citta possess a specific, minimal temporal size or duration?

• Divisibility of this Size: Assuming it has this minimal temporal size, is a single moment strictly indivisible? Theoretically, if one were to divide it further, would it reduce to zero or no existent thing at all?

• Size of Materiality vs. Mentality: Does a single, discrete moment of rūpa have the exact same temporal size as a single moment of citta? (Note: Please I ansking strictly about singular, individual moments, not aggregates or streams of moments).

• Textual Sources: Are there precise citations within the Abhidhamma Piṭaka itself, or from highly regarded commentaries, that explicitly define the temporal size of these singular discrete moments?

• Soteriological Impact: If rūpadhammas and cittas possess a fixed, irreducible duration (āyu ), and considering the model where the lifespan of one rūpa equals exactly seventeen mind-moments (cittakkhaṇas?), what is the practical soteriological significance of this discrepancy? How does understanding this precise ratio impact the path?

[RobertK]

@Paulo

• The “Size” of a Single Citta: Does a present moment of citta possess a specific, minimal temporal size or duration?

Hi Paulo,

Citta doesn’t have size as it is mentality but it arises and cease quickly.

(1) Uninstructed (1) p. 595 Samyutta Nikaya Vol 1 (translated by Bodhi)
"
But that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’ and consciousness’
arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just
as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets
that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still
another, so too that which is called ‘mind’ and ‘mentality’
and ‘consciousness’ arises as one thing and ceases as another by day
and by night. [note 157]

[note 157: Spk: 'By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca):
This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e., during the night and
during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (annadeva
uppajjati, anna.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that
arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that
arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be
taken to mean that one thing arises and some thing altogether
different, which had not arisen, ceases. “Day and night” is said by
way of continuity, taking a continuity of lesser duration than the
previous one (i.e. the one stated for the body). But one citta is
not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the
> time of a fingersnap many hundred thousand kotis of cittas arise and
> cease (1 koti=10 million)

[RobertK]

@Paulo

• Divisibility of this Size: Assuming it has this minimal temporal size, is a single moment strictly indivisible? Theoretically, if one were to divide it further, would it reduce to zero or no existent thing at all?

No possibility of further division, it is paramattha, ultimate reality.

[RobertK]

@Paulo

• Size of Materiality vs. Mentality: Does a single, discrete moment of rūpa have the exact same temporal size as a single moment of citta? (Note: Please I ansking strictly about singular, individual moments, not aggregates or streams of moments).

No. Rupa arises and ceases slower than mentality.

@Paulo

• Soteriological Impact: If rūpadhammas and cittas possess a fixed, irreducible duration (āyu ), and considering the model where the lifespan of one rūpa equals exactly seventeen mind-moments (cittakkhaṇas?), what is the practical soteriological significance of this discrepancy? How does understanding this precise ratio impact the path?

Because the path is seeing the world as it really is. And the world is simply the arising and passing of conditioned namas and rupas.
Rupa is very different from nama, mentality, and one of those differences is the rate of the rise and fall.

evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya daṭṭhabbaṃ.
this should be seen as it really is with right wisdom.

Also see this thread:

The rapidity of the rise and fall and are the actual individual realities known?

This is from a discussion I had on dhammawheel. Alex123: The issue is: In the “Discourse on Elements” (Dhatukatha) book, page XXVII it says commentary to Dhatukatha claims that 10^12 of cittas (a trillion! 1,000,000,000,000) arise per second. The sub-commentary raises the number to 10^15 cittas per second. I don’t dispute the claim. I wonder if the number is meant to be taken literal or not. I do not know. Maybe this number was meant to be taken literal (the commentator thought that way) bu…

[Paulo]

Thank you so much for the response, @RobertK .

Regarding my question about the “size” of citta, I used that word “size” but actually I meant “duration”. Specifically, whether there is an “indivisible minimum duration that is greater than zero”. I imagine that if the duration were zero, the present moment could not exist. Therefore, my question can be rephrased like this: no matter how brief it may be, is there a non-zero, indivisible minimum duration for a citta?

[RobertK]

@Paulo

, my question can be rephrased like this: no matter how brief it may be, is there a non-zero, indivisible minimum duration for a citta?

yes, it arises and passes away so quickly, animal or human or deva.

Sutta-pitaka:
Mahāniddesa 42

Life, person, pleasure, pain — just these alone
Join in one conscious moment that flicks by.

Devas, though they live for eighty-four thousand kalpas,
Are not the same for two such moments…

Breakup of dhammas is foredoomed at their birth;
Those present decay, unmingled with those past.
They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go;
Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky.

It doesn’t get slower or faster at times:
as I quoted near the beginning:

Even in the time of a fingersnap many hundred thousand kotis of cittas arise and cease (1 koti=10 million)