The myth of "Sthaviravada"

Excellent post by Dmytro:
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=28943

Hi,

There’s a popular buddhological construct of “Sthaviravada” - an enigmatic early school, quite different from Theravada.

Caodemarte [ who is one of those who mistakenly believes this ] summed it up nicely:

Caodemarte wrote:
From
Early Buddhist schools - Wikipedia

“Noted Canadian Buddhist scholar A.K. Warder (University of Toronto) identifies the following eighteen early Buddhist schools (in approximate chronological order): Sthaviravada, Mahasamgha, Vatsiputriya, Ekavyavaharika, Gokulika (a.k.a. Kukkutika, etc.), Sarvastivada, Lokottaravada, Dharmottariya, Bhadrayaniya, Sammitiya, Sannagarika, Bahusrutiya, Prajnaptivada, Mahisasaka, Haimavata (a.k.a. Kasyapiya), Dharmaguptaka, Caitika, and the Apara and Uttara (Purva) Saila. Warder says that these were the early Buddhist schools as of circa 50 BCE, about the same time that the Pali Canon was first committed to writing and the presumptive origin date of the Theravada sect, though the term ‘theravada’ was not used before the fourth century CE (see Ajahn Sucitto, “What Is Theravada” (2012); see also A.K. Warder, Indian Buddhism, 3rd rev. ed. (Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, 2000), chapters 8 and 9”
Caodemarte wrote:
Since as a distinct movement Theravada claims to have looked back to the 3rd Council (which may or may not have occurred) for inspiration they clearly could not have begun before that date. (Damien Keown’s A Dictionary of Buddhism. 2003. pp. 279-280 states there is no historical evidence that the Theravāda school arose until around two centuries after the putative Third Council).

By its own accounts, Theravada seems to have come out of a Sthaviravadin sub-sect and seems to share certain doctrines. This is not the same as saying Theravada is Sthaviravada as some Theravadin legends dubiously claim, but that they were influenced or inspired by or Sthaviravada or were an off-shoot of a sub-sect seems likely. Sadly, there is zero actual evidence for this apart from one obviously forged Sri Lankan history.

There’s a tiny problem with this “Sthaviravada” construct - it’s a figment of imagination unattested in any Sanskrit sources. This word was invented by some buddhologist, who haplessly sanskritized the word “Theravada”, probably under the influence of another myth - that Sanskrit existed earlier then Pali.

A recent modification of this myth is that the enigmatic early school, which parted ways with Mahasanghika, was called “Arya-Sthavira Nikaya”. That’s indeed an improvement, since such term is attested in numerous Sanskrit sources.
Nyana wrote:

Also, the 12th century northern Indian author Daśabalaśrīmitra refers to the Sthaviras and quotes extensively from the Vimuttimagga which he states is the “Āgama of the Ārya-Sthavira-nikāya.” And the 19th century Tibetan author Jamgön Kongtrül also mentions the Sthaviras by name and, relying on Vinītadeva’s Nikāyabhedopadeśasaṃgraha, also states that the “Jetavanīyas, Abhayagirikas, and Mahāvihārins are the [three] Sthaviras.”

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= … 85#p210285

However, at the time of Mahasanghika split, Sanskrit didn’t yet exist. Lingua franca was still a language similar to Pali, preserved in inscriptions:
All in all, the Aśokan inscriptions give a broad view of the dialect spectrum of MIA vernaculars in the third century B.C. But it must also be understood that they do not provide anything like a real dialectal map of the time. For the geographical distribution of the dialects - especially of the eastern dialect - can hardly correspond with linguistic reality; the eastern dialect was obviously not the mother tongue of residents of the far north and the central south, though it was used for inscriptions (Kālsī, Eṛṛaguḍi, etc.) in those regions. Moreover, the languages as they are presented in the inscriptions are surely not exact renditions of the contemporary vernaculars.

After the Mauryan period there is a major shift in the linguistic features of the inscriptional Prakrits. The predominance of the eastern dialect of the Aśokan and other inscriptions of the Mauryan period ends abruptly; in fact, not a single inscriptional record in eastern dialect has been found from the post-Mauryan era. The dominant role in all regions except the northwest and Sri Lanka falls hereafter to a variety of Prakrit which most resembles, among the Aśokan dialects, the western dialect of the Girnār rock edicts, and which among literary languages has the most in common with Pāli and archaic forms of Śauraseni. In other words, this dialect partakes of the typical characteristics of the western and central MIA languages: nominative singular masculine in -o, retention of Sanskrit r and l, predominance of the sibilant s, and so on. Like the Aśokan Prakrits, this central-western epigraphic Prakrit is still relatively archaic, with only occasional intervocalic voicing of unvoiced stops and elision of voiced stops. But unlike some of the Aśokan inscriptions, consonant groups from Sanskrit are nearly always assimilated.

The causes of the abrupt dialectal shift from east to west undoubtedly lie in political and historical developments, that is, the decline of Magadha as the center of power in northern India after the collapse of the Mauryan empire and the movement of the center of political power in the following centuries toward the west and northwest. Like the eastern dialect under Aśoka, the central-western dialect of the post-Mauryan era was used far beyond what must have been its original homeland. Thus we find inscriptions in this standard epigraphic Prakrit as far afield as Orissa in the east, for instance, in the Hāthīgumphā inscription (SI 1.213-21), while in the south it is abundantly attested in inscriptions from such sites as Nāgārjunakoṇḍa and Amarāvatī. This central-western MIA dialect was, in fact, virtually the sole language in epigraphic use in the period in question, and therefore seems, like Pāli, to have developed into something like a northern Indian lingua franca, at least for epigraphic purposes, in the last two centuries B.C.

This is not to say that the inscriptions in this dialect, which Senart called “Monumental Prakrit”, are totally devoid of local variations. … But all in all, the standard epigraphic or “Monumental” Prakrit can be treated as essentially a single language whose use spread far beyond its place of origin, and which should not be taken to represent the local vernacular of every region and period where it appears.

R. Salomon - Indian Epigraphy: A Guide to the Study of Inscriptions in Sanskrit, Prakrit, and the other Indo-Aryan Languages

https://books.google.com/books?id=XYrG0 … &q&f=false
https://archive.org/stream/IndianEpigra … /mode/2up/
So the sanskritized term “Sthavira” appeared only later, when Sanskrit was invented and gained wide currency. The original term was “Thera”.

Best wishes, Dmytro

4 Likes

The scholars would have nothing left to write about early Buddhism if they considered the role of Sangayana, in which the Sangha assembled to convene for the longevity of Buddha Sasana and purification of the Dhamma. The current Tipitaka is the Sixth Sangayana version, that is the same to the First Sangayana version. Different Theravada traditions added some new texts that are recognized as they are and not mixed with the original Pali texts. The Sangha is more sincere and genuine than the scholars would like to believe.

2 Likes

Sometimes I feel the so-called modern academic and scholars are just writing for the sake of writing.

:thinking:

2 Likes

Not sure D gets this right. The Commentary’s analysis of Sakkatabhāsā - the Pali term for Sanskrit - indicates that it was believed to have been created by the ancient seers whose meditative insights gave rise to the Vedas:

tattha santehi katāti sakkaṭā, aṭṭhakavāmakādīhi samitapāpehi isīhi katāti attho. atha vā sakkaritabbā pūjitabbāti sakkaṭā manussānaṃ hitasukhāvahanato, tadatthikehi manussehi pūjitabbāti attho. bhāsīyateti bhāsā, sakkaṭā ca sā bhāsā cāti sakkaṭabhāsā.

So am I right in thinking that the original group known as the Sthavira - who held firm against the Mahāsāmghika in S2 - is to be considered as one and the same in lineage/affiliation to Theravāda? That the difference in name is simply an error in transmission due to Sanskritisation?

The start of the comment seems to deny this, but the last comment seems to confirm it…?

It would make sense in that we would have to consider Theravāda as a continuous line from the original Saṅgha, given that we deem it to be the only non-schismatic grouping. Thus there should be no substantive difference between Theravāda and the group that the MS split from.

I just added a comment in square brackets to clarify.
In the OP Dmytro is giving an example of one of those who believes the "Sthaviravada’ nonsense.

1 Like

This is all wrong and an outright attacks on the Theravada. I think it is more suited for a website like suttacentral where they allow heretical ideas.

Here is the Katthavathuppakarana-Atthakatha (by Buddhoghosa) (p3 of Points of controversy, PTS)
It talks about after the second council (about 100 years after Buddha parinibbana)

“Ten thousand of the of the Vajjiputtaka bhikkhus[after spliting from the good monks] seeking adherents among themselves, formed a school called the Mahasanghika [these then split several times] Thus from the school of the Mahasanghikas, in the second century only two schools seceded from the Theravada[note that the rightful monks are called Theravada by Buddhaghosa]-Mahimsinsasakas and Vajjiputtakas… [it lists more that split later]…Thus from the Theravada arose these eleven seceding bodies making 12 in all. And these 12 together the six schools of the Mahasanghikas constitute the 18 schools which arose in the second century. Of the eighteen, 17 are to be understood as schismatics, the Theravadan only being non- schismatic.

The commentary continues and cites the Dipavamsa.

The Bhikkhus [of the schismatic sects] "
settled a doctrine contrary [to the true faith] Altering the original redaction, they made another. they transposed suttas which belonged in one collection to another place;they destroyed the true meaning and the faith in the vinyaa and in the five collections. Those bhikkus who understood neither what had been taught in long expositons…settled a false meaning in connection with spourious speeches of the Buddha. These bhikkhus destroyed a great deal of meaning under the colour of the letter. Rejecting the other texts- that is to say the Pavara, the six sections of the Abhidhamma, the Patisambhidhida, the niddessa and some portions of the Jataka they composed new ones. They changed their appearance, …forsaking what was original…"

Please do not cite anymore of these delusions of modern scholars - unless it is to ask genuine questions- or use sanskrit in any posts.

2 Likes

Yes. People try to spread false ideas of Mahayanikas.

2 Likes

I hope you do not misunderstand what I am referring to here. I am mentioning all the accounts (especially non-Theravadins) so that anyone who wants to delve deeper into the matter can research them. I did not mention the Dīpavaṃsa account because it is clear, as I believe (isn’t it?). I am purely orthodox; It is impossible for me to present “heresy” within my tradition, which I hold in high regard.

I also present what goes on within the scholars’ circles (Which is somewhat characterized here by a consensus on certain points).

Hirakawa Akira:

The Dīpavaṃsa account continues, adding that the dissenting monks who were expelled from the order then gathered ten thousand supporters and held their own council to compile the Buddha’s teachings.

This was called the Great Council (Mahāsāṅgīti). These monks were said to have compiled false teachings, rejected the canon agreed upon at the First Council, and compiled their own canon. They moved sūtras from one part of the canon to another, thereby distorting the doctrines of the five Nikāyas. They confused orthodox and heterodox teachings and did not distinguish between teachings to be taken literally and those requiring interpretations. They discarded parts of the sūtras and the vinaya and composed false scriptures, which they substituted for the rejected texts.

According to the Dīpavaṃsa account, the monks of the Great Assembly compiled new versions of the sūtras and vinaya quite different from those of the Sthaviras. This group is called “the monks of the Great Council” (Mahāsāṅgītika) in the Dīpavaṃsa and “the Great Assembly” (Mahāsāṅghika) in the Mahāvaṃsa. The name “Mahāsāṅghika” mean that these monks constituted the majority ofmonks at the initial schism.

Thus, according to the Sri Lankan tradition, after the initial schism the Theravada and Mahāsāṅghika schools each held a separate council.

This is what you referring to Sir, right?

In addition to this, Buddhaghosa’s commentary on the Kathāvatthu identifies several Buddhist sects that emerged after the initial schisms. He mentions six new sects, with four of them (Rājagirikas, Siddhatthikas, Pubbaseliyas, and Aparadeliyas) being collectively known as Andhakas, whose presence is confirmed by inscriptions in the Andhra region near Amarāvati. He also discusses three additional groups - the Uttarapathakas (northern schools), Hetuvādas (distinct from Sarvāstivādins despite later traditions), and Vetullakas (associated with Mahāyāna teachings). While the Vajiriyas remain obscure, and the Uttarapathakas are only vaguely defined as northern schools, the Vetullakas are notable for their Mahāyānist leanings.

This is one of the statements of Bhk. Sujato, who often jumps between opinions, especially regarding the schism. I believe further elaboration is unnecessary in this context.

Ok so when you wrote “the Sthaviravāda is the ancestor of a group of schools, one of which is Theravāda” it wasn’t actually your opinion. You were quoting a scholar who you agree was wrong?

I presented that here (also the entire text) in a ‘literal form,’ and as I mentioned earlier, I referred to non-Theravādin sources (exactly as they are) without any remarks. Although I changed the phrasing of this quotation here, in reality, it is right that the way it is referenced makes it seem like an “implicit endorsement” from me [I didn’t notice this point] which I do not adopt. I should have added something like ‘According to source X,’ […].

1 Like

:heart_eyes:

1 Like