Recently I watched a Zoom Lesson conducted by Tipitaka Scholar Venerable Maggavihari at IIT.
During the last part of the lesson he explained about Jhanas.
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In order to achieve Jhanas one must have practiced Sila well and he already requires a higher Wisdom.
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Then he must have seen the Adinava (drawbacks) of Kama very well.
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As long as one can’t see the Adinava of Kama, he will not atain the Jhana.
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After attaining jhanas, he achieves very higher level of Wisdom which is called Jhana-panna.
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Jhana-panna is the one that eliminates the Delusion of “hiding the drawbacks of Sensual Pleasures”.
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Many people forget to notice the Wisdom in Jhana.
Then, there was a good Q&A session after the lesson, where a lay upasaka asked an interesting question.
Upasaka: Bhante, now that the jhanas being harder to achieve for a lay person than the Stream-entry, I want to learn about the path to attain Stream-entry , so, my question is …
Venerable: Wait, wait !, We have to re-correct the question first. … Are you saying that Jhanas are difficult than Stream-entry?
Upasaka: Yes, having listened to your lesson that explained the difficulty of attaining Jhanas, I think it’s better for lay people to try Stream-entry first and then Jhanas.
Venerable: Oh ho, I know, this is how many people think about he Stream-entry.
And I know some people would think I am discouraging the practitioners when I say this.
I’m not speaking this to discourage the Meditators, but the truth should be known.
The Stream-entry is Million times Billion times harder to achieve than Jhana.
That is what the text implicitly says.
(therefore we should practice more and very orderly)
And I have seen Robert also saying something in this regard.
And the above OP received the following comments from users in another forum.
I think that makes sense. Udaka Ramaputta and Alara Kalama were sramana ascetics who the Buddha studied under and they were able to reach formless realms, but not enlightenment, nor sotapannahood.
In Jainism, Hinduism and possibly some other religions, we hear of some ascetics reaching jhana-like states of consciousness, but not enlightenment.
Therefore, stream-entry would be harder to attain than jhana. A person could have regular jhana attainments, but no enlightenment. Even Devadatta had some psychic abilities (later lost them) but of course no enlightenment.
Immeasurably more difficult.
Attaining seclusion is a quite straightforward step-by-step process, a person needs to learn the steps but it’s easy to understand.
Stream-Entry is something a person more or less works up to since a beginningless transmigation and certainly all of his life.
It’s difficult to find people not fixated in pernicious wrong views let alone people who have abandoned them.
Point taken that stream entry is considered a considerable attainment, but a million times a billion is a big number.
We might want to counter-balance that with Ajahn Chah’s assertion that for a serious practitioner (presumably he meant a monk) five years is enough to realise stream entry.
Sam Vara wrote:
Point taken that stream entry is considered a considerable attainment, but a million times a billion is a big number.I think it depends on the person.
Ugghatitannu and Vipancitannu persons might attain in his very life.
Neyya-person might or not attain in this life depending on the support he gets.
Padaparama-peson needs “Two to Eons” time.Sam Vara wrote:
We might want to counter-balance that with Ajahn Chah’s assertion that for a serious practitioner (presumably he meant a monk) five years is enough to realise stream entry.This kind of opinions can be the very thing the venerable implicitly addresses.
Depend on the Sect/Interpretation that one follows, the time believed may vary.
I have read the teacher-monks in Ajahn Chah tradition teach “Sakkayaditthi” as “Giving up the physical body”.
According to such interpretations, the time believed may become short, because there is the possibility of attaining “A samadhi or Jhana state”, by which the attachment to “physical body” may given up temporarily, by some ardent practitioners.
Given that the preacher monk (OP) is a Mahavihara-traditional monk, he most probably believes the classical interpretation of “Sakkayaditthi” which is “Upadana to all the 5 khandhas”.
How do you perceive it?