Sabbe saṅkhārā anattā or Sabbe dhamma anattā?

Textual Scholarship
42

Thats not true, the Buddha repeated the Dhammacakkavvappattana sutta several times until all 5 ascetics enlightened as sotapannas. Kodanna simply enlightened first. After they were all sotapannas he gave the Anattalakkhaṇa sutta to develop them further along the path.

I didnt mean to imply anatta isnt important, it is of course important or the Buddha wouldnt teach it. I meant that it was not necessary to enter the stream, but of course is necessary to fully enlighten as an arahant. But unless you are a sotapanna already, i just think you’re better off focusing on other teachings first, rather than fixating on a more advanced (but still vital) teaching like anatta. And like i said, fixating on it actually prevents enlightenment at the higher stages.

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43

When one understands anicca, dukkha or anatta, one also understands all three because they are related and applied to each other. True, one does not need to know all three, but one will certainly know all of them once one understands one of them by means of bhavanamaya panna (bhavana-maya panna).

There were monks who contemplated on anicca during the Sasana of Kassapa Buddha. Realizing that, Gotama Buddha instructed them to contemplate on anicca. There were some monks who contemplated on dukkha… There were monks who contemplated on anatta…

The Three Basic Facts of Existence: I. Impermanence (Anicca) > Existence can be understood only if these three basic facts are comprehended, and this not only logically, but in confrontation with one’s own experience. Insight-wisdom (vipassanaa-pa~n~naa) which is the ultimate liberating factor in Buddhism, consists just of this experience of the three characteristics applied to one’s own bodily and mental processes, and deepened and matured in meditation.

Verse 036

As a bhikkhu, he was taught the Abhidhamma** by one teacher and the Vinaya by another. Being taught in this way, he felt that there was too much to be learnt, that the disciplinary rules were too strict and too many, so much so that there was not enough freedom even to stretch out one’s hands… the Buddha came to know about this, he said to the young bhikkhu, “if you can only control your mind, you will have nothing more to control; so guard your own mind.”

44

I don’t know how you get the logic saying that Anatta teaching can be dropped off just want to gain Sotapannahood. You even go as further to suggest learning about Anatta teaching is blocking one’s potential to advance spiritual quest.

Sotapanna is the one who discarded three defilements: Sakkāyadiṭṭhi, Vicikkiccha, and Silabbata paramasa.

And only by understanding the Anatta teachings, Sakkāyadiṭṭhi can be discarded.

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45

Based on the evidence from the first sermon, it looks like you dont need to understand anatta, at least not fully, to be a sotapanna, otherwise kondanna wouldnt have been able to become one. Im not saying you shouldnt learn about it or try to understand it, or that you should only try to stop at sotapanna. I was just pointing out this fact as a matter of practicality.

I did not say learning about anatta blocks ones advancement. I said fixating or clinging to the idea of there being no self will prevent enlightenment. I even said above it is necessary to understand anatta to attain the higher levels of enlightenment.

46

You do make a excellent point about this though. A sotapanna is free from identity view, so it sorta makes you wonder how the 5 ascetics were able to let go of thier identity view with the dhammacakkavappatanna sutta alone and without hearing the Anattalakkhaṇa sutta yet :thinking:

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47

Yes this is a very important point.
What i admit humbly, i don’t know, is about the importantance of the characteristic of non self of asankhata dhātu, because nibbāna is already obtained (at phala samāpatti ). But whathever my personal opinion on this point it is all about non self things, definitely.

And to understand the non self of all Sankhārā is absolutely necessary right from beginning of vipassanā of a putthujjana up to Arahantship.
And as you said, sotapatti magga destroys… Self view, sakkāyaditthi.

I absolutely agree on the paramount importance of non self in all the Buddha ’ s teaching, and in all the practice from beginning to the end
:pray:

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48

Please don’t think to hear a sutta alone is enough.
If the 5 ascetics could attain magga phala just by hearing Dhamma, it was because of their past practice. They have practiced sīla samādhi paññā in past lifes, they had already obtained vipassanā knowledges under previous Buddha.

Why the wanderer Sāriputta attain stream entry by hearing half of a verse from the Arahant Assajji? Because of the so strong pāramī from past life practice.

When you see a riped fruit falling from a tree, would you say it is not necessary for the tree to grow under the sun, with water and others conditions such suitable nutriments in the earth? You would not, because the fruit griwn up and riped precisely because of that.

In the same way, we all need to practice sīla samādhi and paññā : we all need to contemplate aniccā dukkha anattā of the sankhārā to one day, attain the Noble path and its fruit.

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49

There are 4 categories of persons said by the Buddha : (Abhidhamma Pitaka, Puggala paññati )

katamo ca puggalo ugghaṭitaññū? yassa puggalassa saha udāhaṭavelāya dhammābhisamayo hoti — ayaṃ vuccati puggalo “ugghaṭitaññū”.

Who is the person quick in knowledge? For the persons who at the time of exposition penetrates Dhamma : such person is called quick in knowledge.

katamo ca puggalo vipañcitaññū? yassa puggalassa saṃkhittena bhāsitassa vitthārena atthe vibhajiyamāne dhammābhisamayo hoti — ayaṃ vuccati puggalo “vipañcitaññū”.

Who is a person getting knowledge at (middle) exposition? For this person, at the explanation of what has been said in brief, he penetrates Dhamma : such person is called one who get knowledge at the exposition.

katamo ca puggalo neyyo? yassa puggalassa uddesato paripucchato yoniso manasikaroto kalyāṇamitte sevato bhajato payirupāsato evaṃ anupubbena dhammābhisamayo hoti — ayaṃ vuccati puggalo “neyyo”.

Who is a person who can learn? For this person by explaining, by questioning, by wise consideration, by association companionship and learning with good friends, in this way he penetrates Dhamma : such is called a person who can learn.

katamo ca puggalo padaparamo? yassa puggalassa bahumpi suṇato bahumpi bhaṇato bahumpi dhārayato bahumpi vācayato na tāya jātiyā dhammābhisamayo hoti — ayaṃ vuccati puggalo “padaparamo”.

Who is a person for whom the word is foremost? For this person whatever much he hears, whatever much he recites whatever much he bears in mind wathever much instructs in this life he does not penetrate Dhamma : he is called a person for whom the word is foremost.

In these 4 categories of person, the Venerable AññāKondañña and the 4 others ascetics were Vipancitaññū (one who understand by exposition).
The Venerable Sāriputta was Uggatitaññu (one who is quick to understand ).

In our age, only the two latest categories remain: neyya (one who can learn), who is capable of attaining sotapatti in this life, and padaparama, one who can not whatever much he practice.
But padaparama by present practice, will be able to attain in future life.
Therefore to try to develop complete vipassanā in order is necessary for all of us.

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50

Yes absolutely, they were also pretty well developed spiritually in their current lives already, so of course hearing a sutta alone will not lead to liberation.

I was more getting at, the brahmins at sotapanna needed to hear the anattalakkana sutta to reach the final step, so they (implicitly) didnt have a full understanding of anatta yet at sotapanna even though they no longer had self view. Which implies fully understanding it is something to be focused on at an advanced stage of enlightenment similar to the idea that unshakable faith in the Buddha can only be really experienced at enlightement itself, not the typical kind of strong faith that is of the non-ariyas.

I 100% agree anatta is of paramount importance to the path and want to make clear I am not brushing it aside as a vital concept of the Dhamma. Definitely dont want that kind of kamma to even unintentionally slander the Buddha by saying or implying otherwise.

51

Yes actually the wisdom of a sotapanna is lesser than the wisdom of an Arahant. To develop their wisdom and other faculties they needed to contemplate anicca dukkha anattā, as mentioned in the Anatta lakkhana sutta.
The fact that they have uprooted self views does not implies their understanding is complete. A sotapanna has not yet uprooted all defilements and he need to develop vipassanā forward.

But the faith of Ariya is stronger than a putthujjana (ordinary person), it is acala saddhā : unshakable faith. A noble person faith can not be compared. It is always high.
A kalyānaputthujana need to bring faith skillfully, but at time he may have doubt. Ariya can not have doubt. Their faith can not be shaken by anything in the world.
Therefore, yes, their faith is different : deeper, and connected with deeper knowledge.

But our faith as putthujjana is so valuable, it is necessary for all the Dhamma practice and it has many benefits.

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