Sabbe saṅkhārā anattā or Sabbe dhamma anattā?

this topic was split off from Modern Thai Forest Buddhism may not be Buddhasasana - #12 by RobertK

this seems to be incorrectly recorded on that website. It should be
Sabbe dhammā anatta" ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

Four Paramattha Dhamma: Citta, Cetasika, Rupa, Nibbana.
These four are sabbe dhamma.
Citta, cetasiaka, and rupa are sankhara/uppadanakhanda that is subject of anicca. Anicca is dukkha. Anicca and dukkha are anatta. These three are laws of nama-rupa sankhara.
Nibbana - Santi-sukha, relief - Santi sukha Nibbana - Google Zoeken

No. That is Pitaka version. The Dhammapada: Verses and Stories

Please check with other sources such as tipitaka.org.

Sabbe dhamma are all the four Paramattha. How can all the four be anicca, dukkha, anatta? Where did the Buddha teach everything is anicca, dukkha, anatta? Where did the Buddha teach Nibbana is anicca, dukkha, anatta?
No, the Buddha never taught that way.

The actual pali is
sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā
sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā
sabbe dhammā anattā

So Nibbana is certainly not anicca or dukkha. It is, however, anatta.

Where does it come from? Try to find the source.
Try not to translate anatta as nonself, which is what anatta does not mean.

Is The Dhammapada a reliable source?

277
‘‘Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā’’ti, yadā paññāya passati;[Pg.53]|[Pg.53]|
Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā.||
278
‘‘Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti, yadā paññāya passati;
Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā.
279
‘‘sabbe dhammā anattā’’ti, yadā paññāya passati;
Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā.

atta is self.
anatta is the opposite of self.

I don’t know anyone who would give a different definition for these words.

The peu is a scholar dictionary. It is actually called the Abhidhān dictionary and is so far, 24 volumes. This is one of my sub-projects for TPP. I think you forgot the long-ā for dhammā and anattā’ti when searching.

[PEU] [Na+atta] CL=9 There are forms in Paḷi texts: Anattā is three genders, Paṭhamā(nominative case) singular-plural. Anattaṁ, anattānaṁ in three genders, causative singular. Anattanā in masculine instrumental singular, Anattani in masculine locative singular. In Maṇimañjū,2,421, there is the form Anattano in genitive singular. See also page-499. (anātman-Sk)] no-having no- Atta considered by heretics. See also Atta (c).

Indeed, bhante, the definition is given as self. If self is used for atta, then that self must be in line with Buddhist context (controller/owner of the five aggregates). It should not be from western concept. Then how do debaters here define ‘self’ in Buddhist context?

Anatta means the nature/laws do not follow one’s will/command - i.e. the five aggregates are not me, not mine, not what I am.

Pali-English dictionary Atta, Attā, Aṭṭa, Ātta: 20 definitions

atta : (m.) soul; oneself. || aṭṭa (nt.) 1. lawsuit; 2. watch tower; 3. a scaffold for workers. (adj.) (from aṭṭita:) grieved; afflicted.

Source: Sutta: The Pali Text Society’s Pali-English Dictionary

  1. Aṭṭa, 3 (Sk. ārta, pp. of ardati, ṛd to dissolve, afflict etc. ; cp. Sk. ārdra (= P. adda and alla); Gr. a)ρdw to moisten, a)ρda dirt. See also aṭṭīyati & aṭṭita) distressed, tormented, afflicted; molested, plagued, hurt Sn. 694 (+ vyasanagata; SnA 489 ātura); Th. 2, 439 (= aṭṭita ThA. 270), 441 (= pīḷita ThA. 271); J. IV, 293 (= ātura C.); Vv 809 (= attita upadduta VvA. 311). Often —°: iṇaṭṭa oppressed by debt M. I, 463; Miln. 32; chāt° tormented by hunger VvA. 76; vedan° afflicted by pain Vin. II, 61; III, 100; J. I, 293; sūcik° (read for sūcikaṭṭha) pained by stitch Pv III, 23.

  2. Aṭṭa, 2 (cp. Sk. artha, see also attha 5 b) lawsuit, case, cause Vin. IV, 224; J. II, 2, 75; IV, 129 (°ṃ vinicchināti to judge a cause), 150 (°ṃ tīreti to see a suit through); VI, 336. (Page 15)

  3. Aṭṭa, 1 (cp. see aṭṭaka) a platform to be used as a watchtower Vin. I, 140; DA. I, 209. (Page 15)

BUDDHIST DICTIONARY

anattā: ‘not-self’, non-ego, egolessness, impersonality, is the last of the three characteristics of existence (ti-lakkhaṇa, q.v.) The anattā doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any other abiding substance.

attā: 'self, ego, personality, is in Buddhism a mere conventional expression (vohāradesanā), and no designation for anything really existing; s. paramattha-desanā , anattā, puggala, satta, jīva.

The commentators state sabbe dhammaa is limited to the 5
aggregates, in the dhammapada 279, but in other parts of the canon the commentators include
Nibbana, the asankata dhatu within `Sabbe Dhamma Anattaa". The Channa
Sutta of the Khandhavagga of the Samyutta Nikaya has

All formations are impermanent, all phenomena are anatta.
Sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe dhamma anattaa’ti.

The commentaries state in reference to this passage:

Sabbe sankhara anicca’ti sabbe tebhumakasankhara aniccaa.
Sabbe dhammaa anattaati sabbe catubhumakadhammaa anattaa.

All formations of the three planes are impermanent; all phenomena of
the four planes are notself.

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Sabbe dhamma includes all four paramattha: three sankhata (changing/formation/sankhara) and one/nibbana as asankhata (unchage/unformed)

See anatta in BUDDHIST DICTIONARY for the following quote:

While in the case of the first two characteristics it is stated that all formations (sabbe saṅkhārā) are impermanent and subject to suffering, the corresponding text for the third characteristic states that “all things are not-self” (sabbe dhammā anattā ; M. 35, Dhp. 279). This is for emphasizing that the false view of an abiding self or substance is neither applicable to any ‘formation’ or conditioned phenomenon, nor to Nibbāna, the Unconditioned Element (asaṅkhatā dhātu).

The Anattā-lakkhaṇa Sutta, the ‘Discourse on the Characteristic of Not-self’, was the second discourse after Enlightenment, preached by the Buddha to his first five disciples, who after hearing it attained to perfect Holiness (Arahatta).

That’s a mistake made by a few people.

Dhamma is not formation. Sankhara is formation. Dhamma is law. All laws cannot be anatta. Anatta is a law. Some laws are anicca and dukkha. Some other laws are other things.

"sabbe saṅkhārā anattā ti" ti versus Sabbe dhamma anattaa

Try to see all the links gathered by google, but maybe not necessary to visit them all.

Original version The Dhammapada: Verses and Stories

“Sabbe sankhara anatta” ti

Copy version https://tipitaka.fandom.com/wiki/Dhammapada_Verses_277,_278_and_279

“Sabbe dhammā anatta” ti

It seems a mess has been built up.

The original version provides translation of “Sabbe sankhara anatta” ti but it becomes ‘dhamma’ and phenomena, which should not be.

Verse 279: “All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self”…

Sabbe sankhara anatta should not become “All phenomena (dhammas).” Sabbe sankhara anatta should only be Sabbe sankhara anatta. By providing the term dhammas, seemingly it became Sabbe dhamma anatta.

I found something: Patis I_utf8

Suttantapiṭake

Khuddakanikāyo

Paṭisambhidāmaggo

Ñāṇakathā.

  1. Sutamayañāṇaṃ.

  2. Kathaṃ sotavadhāne paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ:

'Ime dhammā abhiññeyyā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

'Ime dhammā pariññeyyā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

'Ime dhammā pahatabbā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

'Ime dhammā bhāvetabbā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

'Ime dhammā sacchikātabbā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.
'Ime dhammā hānabhāgiyā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

'Ime dhammā ṭhītibhāgiyā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

'Ime dhammā visesabhāgiyā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.
'Ime dhammā nibbedhabhāgiyā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.
’Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

'Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

'Sabbe saṅkhārā anattā’ti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

'Idaṃ dukkhaṃ ariyacca’nti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

'Idaṃ dukkhasamudayo1 ariyasacca’nti sotāvadhānaṃ, taṃpajānanā paññā sutamaye ñāṇaṃ.

  1. Dukkhasamudayaṃ-machasaṃ

Another source - Dhammapada

Lakkhaṇattayaṃ

(Threefold Characteristics of the Mind-Body)

"Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā"ti, yadā paññāya passati,

Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā

"Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā"ti, yadā paññāya passati,

Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā

"Sabbe saṅkhārā anattā"ti, yadā paññāya passati,

Atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiyā

When one sees with wisdom that all conditioned things are transient, He overcomes unsatisfactoriness - This is the path to purity.

When one sees with wisdom that all conditioned things are unsatisfactory, He overcomes unsatisfactoriness - This is the path to purity.

When one sees with wisdom that all phenomena are soulless, He overcomes unsatisfactoriness - This is the path to purity.

Both Suttantapiṭaka and Dhammapada provide "Sabbe saṅkhārā anattā"ti that is indeed the right one, original one, I believe. Search on google book
Perhaps translation started the problem. Sankhara is translated as phenomena and later Sabbe Sankhara became Sabbe Dhamma.
Perhaps, “sabbe dhammā anattā” is also correct? But I’m not convinced. I rather agree with Ajan Chah here. Why do we agree? Because of saṅkhātadhammā and asaṅkhāta dhammā/asankhata dhamma are different. Asankhata is not associated with anatta.

’‘Sabbe saṃkhārā aniccā’'ti jānato passato paññāya ete sotā3 pithiyanti pacchijjanti na savanti na āsavanti na sandanti nappavattanti. ''Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’'ti jānato passato paññāyete sotā pithiyanti pacchijjanti na savanti na āsavanti na sandanti nappavattanti. ''Sabbe saṅkhārā anattā’'ti jānato passato paññāyete sotā pithiyanti pacchijjanti na savanti na āsavanti na sandanti nappavattanti

Sankharadhamma - Sankhara is a dhamma.

Book: The Five Aggregates: Understanding Theravada Psychology and Soteriology
The Five Aggregates (Page 94)

In these same passages, however, the third characteristic of existence, selflessness, is an attribute of dhamma rather than saṅkhārā…

The whole sentence is so wrong with many mistakes. The word existence should not be used here. Nibbana is also existence. It exists. The word existence misrepresents the Dhamma.

I do not think that, here, the term dhamma is used in a different sense than sankhara. If the Buddha had said “sabbe sankhara anatta ,” meaning that all the conditioned phenomena are substanceless, people might have wrongly inferred that the unconditioned phenomenon (asankhatadhamma) must have a permanent entity (atta).

The author seems unaware of nirodha - cessation of sanna and vedana - sanna-vedayita-nirodha as nibbana that is asankhata dhamma.

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Plain wrong.

The scripture had it very clear. It is:

Sabbe Dhamma Anattati.

Sutta direct proof:
Dhammaniyama sutta

Plus, indirect proof from:
Cula saccaka Sutta

Stop spreading wrong information.

Provide your sources, please.

Consider the misconception here.

Moderation Note

Sabbe Dhammā Anattā’ti

This is a great topic, but has nothing to do with the original title. When you see a divergence, try to quote that person with a new topic. I just did that with somone questioning if there are those who exist who don’t use the commentary.

Bhante, that’s what we’re discussing.

That is translated as “phenomena (dhammas)” and probably became Sabbe Dhamma later.

The assumption of the author of a book in the quote provides some clue.

I would say Nibbāna is Anatta too. As it is not Atta.

Sabbe Dhamma Anatta ti.

Ajahn Chah may not err in his practice, but definitely off with his statement here.

Atta and Anatta are not related to Nibbana. They are Dukkha, which does not exist in Nibbana.

You keep repeating that sentence.

I have given the scriptural reference.
Sabbe Dhamma (all Dhamma) Anattati (are not to be regarded as Self, lack of self).

Now in Abhidhammattha Sangaha, this first verse stated that there were four Paramattha Dhamma - Citta, Cetasika, Rupa, and Nibbāna. These Dhammas are not something different from “Sabbe Dhamma”, since the word “Sabbe”.

Nibbāna doesn’t mean go beyond Self or Nonself. If you said Nibbāna is to go beyond these two states, that you will need to admit the existence of both Self and Nonself to be real as in ultimate sense. This is the problem.

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The Buddha never said “Sabbe Dhamma”… but He said, “Sebbe Sankhara”…

Dhammapada Verses 277, 278 and 279
Aniccalakkhana Vatthu
Dukkhalakkhana Vatthu
Anattalakkhana Vatthu
The Dhammapada: Verses and Stories
“Sabbe sankhara anicca” ti
yada pannaya
1 passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

“Sabbe sankhara dukkha” ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

“Sabbe sankhara anatta” ti
yada pannaya passati
atha nibbindati dukkhe
esa maggo visuddhiya.

This is also good to read.
Dhammapada Verses 58 and 59
Garahadinna Vatthu
The Dhammapada: Verses and Stories

Nibbana is cessation - Nirodha - of sanna and vedana.

Sanna-Vedayita-Nirodha: Ending-Sense-Perception-Sense Experience — … In [SN 4.36.11] The Buddha explains his statement that whatsoever is sense-experience, that is of the nature of pain. Then he describes three progressions leading to Arahantship: that of a progression of endings; that of a progresion of masterings; and that of a progression of calmings-down.

The Buddha, Vipassana, J.Krishnamurti: Paticcasamuppada (Law of Dependent Origination) This state of emancipation is a state beyond mind-matter ; where both vedana and sanna cease. One can experience this for a few seconds, minutes, hours, or days …

Sanna-Vedayita-Nirodha Sanna-Vedayita-Nirodha - Google Zoeken
Search sanna vedana nirodha - Google Zoeken