Right effort and anatta

Meditation
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How to reconcile the classical Abhidhammic viewpoint of the world with the idea that there should be effort to develop the eightfold path. Also, when can we say we are actually on the path.

Firstly some quotes laying out the ancient Theravada view:

Visuddhimagga XIX19
“There is no doer of a deed, or one who reaps the result. Phenomena alone flow on, no other view than this right.
XVIII24
“This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person

XVII31
“The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here
But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll.

And from a recent Source,
Thein Nyun in the forward to Dhatukatha (book of the Abhidhamma) of Pali Text Society, the “Discourse on Elements, ”

But because the functions of the energies give rise to the concepts of continuity, collection and form the ideas arise of
(1) the initial effort that has to be exerted when a deed is about to be performed and
(2) the care that has to be taken while the deed is being performed to its completion. And this leads to the subsequent ideas (3) “I can perform”
and (4) “I can feel”, …
Thus these four imaginary characteristic functions of being have bought about a deep-rooted belief in their existence. But the elements have not the time or span of duration to carry out such functions"

So we see the classical Theravada view of anatta is uncompromising.
Yet Abhidhammikas also claim that right effort is an essential element of the path.
In this thread I will attempt this reconciliation.

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Here is a useful sutta quote about the path: Bodhi translation p.1503

2122 (9) Forerunner
“Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and precursor
of the sunrise, so right view is the forerunner and precursor
of wholesome qualities. For one of right view, right intention
originates. For one of right intention, right speech originates.
For one of right speech, right action originates. For one of right
action, right livelihood originates. F o r one of right livelihood,
right effort originates. For one of right effort, right mindfulness
originates. For one of right mindfulness, right concentration [237]
originates. For one of right concentration, right knowledge originates.
For one of right knowledge, right, liberation originates.”
. Anguttara Nikaya 10:121

So these factors depend on right view - and hence any right effort must arise in conjunction with right view, wisdom, panna.

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Samyutta nikaya
Nidā̄nasaṃyutta Connected Discourses on
Causation
38 (8) Volition (1)

At Sāvatthı̄. “Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one
has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of
consciousness. When there is a basis there is a support for the establishing of
consciousness. When consciousness is established and has come to growth, there
is the production of future renewed existence. When there is the production of
future renewed existence, future birth, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation,
pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass
of suffering.

And the Commentary:

note 112 Spk:

Here, the phrase one intends (ceteti) includes all wholesome and
unwholesome volition of the three planes; one plans (pakappeti), the mental
fabrications of craving and views (taṇhādiṭṭhikappā) in the eight cittas
accompanied by greed [Spk-pṭ: the fabrications of views occur only in the four
cittas associated with views]; and whatever one has a tendency towards (anuseti)
implies the underlying tendencies (anusaya) under the headings of conascence
and decisive-support conditions for the twelve (unwholesome) volitions. (On the
twelve unwholesome cittas, see CMA 1:4-7.)
This becomes a basis (ārammaṇam etaṃ hoti): These various states such as
volition become a condition; for here the word ārammaṇa is intended as
condition (paccaya; that is, here ārammaṇa does not signify an object of
consciousness, the usual meaning in the Abhidhamma). For the maintenance of
consciousness (viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā): for the purpose of maintaining the kammic
consciousness. When there is this condition, there is a support for the
establishing of consciousness (patiṭṭhā viññāṇassa hoti), i.e., for the establishing
of that kammic consciousness [Spk-pṭ: it has a capacity to yield fruit in one’s
mental continuum]. When that (kammic) consciousness is established and has
come to growth (tasmiṃ patiṭṭhite viññāṇe … virūḷhe): when, having impelled
kamma, it has grown, produced roots, through its ability to precipitate rebirth,
there is the production of future renewed existence, i.e., production consisting in
renewed existence.

this is describing the Paticcasamuppada, the three rounds that are happening now…

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The path is explained here (the very advanced stages) :
sn35.245/en/sujato
45. The Simile of the Parrot Tree
245. Kiṃsukopamasutta

1.1Then one mendicant went up to another mendicant and asked,
Atha kho aññataro bhikkhu yenaññataro bhikkhu tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā taṃ bhikkhuṃ etadavoca:
1.2“Reverend, at what point is a mendicant’s vision well purified?”
“kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, bhikkhuno dassanaṃ suvisuddhaṃ hotī”ti?

1.3“When a mendicant truly understands the origin and ending of the six sense fields, at that point their vision is well purified.”
“Yato kho, āvuso, bhikkhu channaṃ phassāyatanānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti, ettāvatā kho, āvuso, bhikkhuno dassanaṃ suvisuddhaṃ hotī”ti.

2.1Not content with that answer, that mendicant went up to a series of other mendicants and received the following answers:
Atha kho so bhikkhu asantuṭṭho tassa bhikkhussa pañhaveyyākaraṇena, yenaññataro bhikkhu tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā taṃ bhikkhuṃ etadavoca:
2.2
“kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, bhikkhuno dassanaṃ suvisuddhaṃ hotī”ti?

2.3“When a mendicant truly understands the origin and ending of the five grasping aggregates, at that point their vision is well purified.”
“Yato kho, āvuso, bhikkhu pañcannaṃ upādānakkhandhānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti, ettāvatā kho, āvuso, bhikkhuno dassanaṃ suvisuddhaṃ hotī”ti.

3.1
Atha kho so bhikkhu asantuṭṭho tassa bhikkhussa pañhaveyyākaraṇena, yenaññataro bhikkhu tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā taṃ bhikkhuṃ etadavoca:
3.2
“kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, bhikkhuno dassanaṃ suvisuddhaṃ hotī”ti?

3.3“When a mendicant truly understands the origin and ending of the four primary elements, at that point their vision is well purified.”
“Yato kho, āvuso, bhikkhu catunnaṃ mahābhūtānaṃ samudayañca atthaṅgamañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti, ettāvatā kho, āvuso, bhikkhuno dassanaṃ suvisuddhaṃ hotī”ti.

4.1
Atha kho so bhikkhu asantuṭṭho tassa bhikkhussa pañhaveyyākaraṇena, yenaññataro bhikkhu tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā taṃ bhikkhuṃ etadavoca:
4.2
“kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, bhikkhuno dassanaṃ suvisuddhaṃ hotī”ti?

4.3“When a mendicant truly understands that everything that has a beginning has an end, at that point their vision is well purified.”
“Yato kho, āvuso, bhikkhu yaṃ kiñci samudayadhammaṃ, sabbaṃ taṃ nirodhadhammanti yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti, ettāvatā kho, āvuso, bhikkhuno dassanaṃ suvisuddhaṃ hotī”ti.

In all of this effort, viriya, energy was present but without wrongview.

Also a useful quote from Nina van Gorkom:

Some people separate pariyatti from pa.tipatti which they see as something that is not part of their normal daily life, as something particular they have to be engaged in. They forget that when they study the theory, pariyatti, they should study with the aim to understand the reality that appears at this moment. One should study in order to understand that any reality of this moment is dhamma, be it seeing or hearing, but one never knew before that it was dhamma. Thus, people should study with the aim to correctly understand that naama dhamma at this moment is the reality that experiences, the element that experiences. Naama dhamma is not theory, but there is naama dhamma while we are seeing now. One may have heard and understood that seeing at this moment is naama dhamma, because it is a reality that experiences something, but the expression “the reality that experiences” is most difficult to understand and to penetrate. When one sees, there is something that is appearing through the eyes, but the reality of naama that sees does not appear. Only when its characteristic appears, it can be known as an element or a kind of dhamma that is real.
When people have understood this, they know that what is appearing through the eyes at this moment could not appear if there would not be naama dhamma that has arisen and sees that object. One can gradually understand that seeing at this moment is dhamma. Therefore, when one studies the Dhamma one studies with the purpose to have right understanding of the characteristics of realities that are the truth of each moment in daily life. This can be a condition for sati to arise and to be aware and in this way one will gradually understand that when one sees at this moment, it is a reality, an element that experiences, or when one hears, that it is an element experiencing sound.
People who listened at the time when the Sammaasambuddha had not yet finally passed away, could understand immediately the characteristics of naama and ruupa. The reason was that they had developed understanding, that they had listened and considered what they had learnt to a great extent. When we read the life stories of those people we see that, before they could realize the four noble truths at the moment of enlightenment, they had to study and listen a great deal during many lives, so that they could become bahussuta. A person who is bahussuta (bahu is much, and suta is heard) is someone who has listened and studied a great deal in order to understand realities. As Khun Nipat has said, at that time there were no books.
Therefore, people listened with understanding and they did not think of textbooks or different subjects written down in books. They heard about realities that were appearing, they could investigate and understand them immediately. Their study was based on listening and considering, they knew that what they heard concerned the reality appearing at that very moment.
When the Buddha asked whether seeing was permanent or impermanent, they answered, “impermanent”. They did not memorize this from a textbook, but seeing was performing the function of seeing, and the pa~n~naa they had developed was the condition for understanding the truth of the reality at that moment.

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Now I am looking at the computer, but what is really there?.
The commentary says (p121 Fruits of recluseship), talking about looking ahead or looking aside, “

the eye is a support condition : forms are an object condition; adverting is a proximity, contiguity, decisive support, absence, and disapperance condition; light is a decisive support condition; feeling etc are conascence conditions. Thus looking ahead and looking aside are discerned in the assemblage of these conditions. Therein, who is it that looks ahead? Who looks aside?”

Realities are arising at the six doors all the time. We can begin to see that a moment at one door is different from a moment at another. There has to be study, investigation of these dhammas, but in the right way – and that is not easy, it is conditioned, it needs accumulations and study.
The thing is, though, is that effort and intention can be akusala, wrong effort.

Understanding of arising and ceasing is an advanced stage of vipassana that comes after the first stage where the difference between nama and rupa are clearly seen.
Everyone can more or less see that cittas change and that rupas change. If we make it our life study we will see this change incessantly.
Nonetheless this can still be a wrong path.
Vipassana nanas, if they arise, there must be no idea at all of anyone making it happen. In fact it happens in a flash – it cannot be controlled. The mind door is revealed and the difference between nama and rupas is clearly seen. Then later stages directly understand the arise and fall.

Going back to the beginning of the path. It depends on Right view - which is developed by reading, listening and considering the Dhamma. And there is no self, there are only momentary elements. If we remember this we can see that sometimes there is right understanding, sometimes something else.
Thus the more we have a basis in the texts and learn to see them reflected , even a little bit, in daily life, the more opportunity there is for right understanding to grow. And with it viriya - energy, effort.

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The self who performs actions is imaginary. And also the idea that actions persist beyond a moment is imaginary.
However there is energy, there is intention, there is vedana, feeling. All of these elements are very real and the texts define and elucidate them so that they can be understood directly .
The average man sees life entirely through a conceptual veil hinging around the illusion of self.
To repeat what I wrote on another thread:
it is all a magic show as I understand the texts.
From the Samantapasadika (note 194 of Bodhi Connected discourses):

Consciousness is like a magical illusion (māyā) in the sense that it is
insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and
fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes
and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of
these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion.

Question: is there anything that can be meaningfully be said to exist? Could one not conceive of effort as a phenomenon: one of those which “flows on”, despite there being no ontologically distinct thing to which it “belongs”?

As I said elements, including effort (although we need to define effort carefully) are real phenomena, but they are momentary, brought about by various conditions(which are listed precisely) and ceasing instantly. There is indeed a flow but it is comprised of moments, each moment falling away but assisting to condition the next.

So in the ancient Buddhist view life is just a flow of ceaseless, conditioned arisings and falling away of mentality and materiality. We cling to self, to children,to wife, to wealth, to health: but this is because we don’t really see the actual nature of life.

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One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one’s right effort…
(MN 117)

Wise men before the Buddha could attain even mundane jhanas - and they still had the belief in self.
So self view doesn’t necessarily hinder kusala deeds. One can give, be virtuous and develop samatha - all even without having heard the Buddha. Think of Christians - who are respected worldwide for all their service to the poor.
And this can all be done believing totally “I am giving, I am keeping sila, I am developing samatha”.

It is only when we are talking about striving towards the summum bonum of what the Buddha taught that right view at its pinnacle is indispensable. So it takes effort, viriya to develop right view - and as the sutta quote suggests, this is where effort should focus. Yet this type of effort is profound, it comes with detachment (alobha) and wisdom.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak … .than.html

“I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place.”[1]
“But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place?”

"When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place

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Viriya, is indispensable. What can happen though, is that we take wrong effort for right effort…Right effort of the path arises with right view.

So elements like Effort and Concentration are easy to have, the reason being that they arise with both kusala and akusala (wholesome and unwholesome mind states):
here is the description of (viriya)Effort in the Abhidhamma:
We read from the Dhammasangani (376):

Katamam tasmim samaye viriyindriyam hoti? “What at that time is the faculty of effort/energy/endeavor?” “That which is mental endeavor (viriyarhambo), riddance of lethargy, exerting harder and harder, endeavoring higher and higher, striving, painstaking zeal, utmost exertion, steadfastness, resoluteness, unfaltering endeavor, having sustained desire (chanda) to strive, not relinquishing the task, discharging the task well, effort (viriya) as the faculty of effort, power of effort, WRONG effort – this at that time is the faculty of endeavor.”
.
Sounded nice until that last phrase . That is what wrong effort is
It repeats that same passage for right effort…

Essentially all types of kusala actions can be done with right view. But many of these can also be done without.
The Abhidhamma classifies cittas in different ways to help understanding. A child might pay respect to a monk because his parent encourages him. The cittas are wholesome but probably without any wisdom there.
The parent, if he has understanding of the teaching , will also pay respect because he sees the monk as representative of the sangha. The cittas then are more likely to be associated with wisdom.

To the point about

what bit of Right View are we interested in as ruling out effort?
Even when we are doing nothing in the conventional sense the khandhas are arising and ceasing; they are showing their nature, ready to be understood.
So situation is not a determining factor in whether insight can arise. Monks were liberated while listening to the Buddha, while being eaten by tigers, while eating their meal. They became arahat after cutting their throats.

It was because insight arose to see the elements as they really are. No technique for this, it was by the gradual accumulation of wisdom. And there was viriya present too - along with concentration and right thought and the other factors.
.

However, we have to be clear here. If we have the idea that “well I know insight is good. So I will do something to try to make it happen” it may be a subtle idea of a self who can do that.

If one can learn to be interested in the present moment then nothing is really inimical to the arising of insight, it all becomes grain that is added to feed the growing insight. .

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Here are the arguments from Classical Camaraderie:

How can “trying to make vipassana happen” be an “idea of self”?
(Excluding the self idea one always have until stream entry)

How can the “mere interest in the present moment” be the only thing needed to the arising of insight?

What about “investigating/ comparing/ thinking” ?

Abhidhamma/ Nettippakarana:

Vicayo, pavicayo, dhammavicayo, cintā, upaparikkhā

Search, research, searching the Doctrine, discrimination, differentiation, criticism, reflection, analysis

Dhammasaṅgaṇī:

What on that occasion is the faculty of insight (paññindriyaṃ)?

The insight which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a “guide”, intuition, intelligence, a “goad”; wisdom as faculty, wisdom as power, wisdom as a sword, wisdom as a height, wisdom as light, wisdom as glory, wisdom as splendour, wisdom as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searching the Truth, right views—this is the wisdom that there then is.

Katamaṁ tasmiṁ samaye paññindriyaṁ hoti?

Yā tasmiṁ samaye paññā pajānanā vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkhaṇā upalakkhaṇā paccupalakkhaṇā paṇḍiccaṁ kosallaṁ nepuññaṁ vebhabyā cintā upaparikkhā bhūrī medhā pariṇāyikā vipassanā sampajaññaṁ patodo paññā paññindriyaṁ paññābalaṁ paññāsatthaṁ paññāpāsādo paññāāloko paññāobhāso paññāpajjoto paññāratanaṁ amoho dhammavicayo sammādiṭṭhi— idaṁ tasmiṁ samaye paññindriyaṁ hoti.

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Here " interested" is including many mental factors . Investigating, chanda and so .

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Is not the Investigation (right investigation/ Panna) a Kusala Cetasika? It is not universal.

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thanks for the comments ekocare. This conversation can clarify our thoughts on Dhamma I hope.

It can be done with an idea of self or with lobha unassociated with wrong view. The trying and subtle idea of self- if it is not seen as it is - can even increase the belief that sati can be controlled and manufactured.
But sati is anatta, it is not under control of anyone:
“

It is not-self on account of the insusceptibility to the exercise of power,. It is not self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no overlord, and of opposing self” (see vis. note 3 xxi)

So concentrating on an object - whatever it may be - is no guarantee of going the right way.
I think the understanding of anatta- at the level of pariyatti- has to soak down to the bones so that there can be the chance for deeper direct understanding to arise.

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But Sati is Under Control of Causes (Paccayayattata).
So, by arranging relevant causes, one can develop sati.

But any Sankhata Dhamma is susceptible to the power of Causes.

But it has Causes as it’s master. (here master is not a person)
And these causes are Sankhata or Asankhata or Pannatti Dhammas.

Therefore, Kusala Cetasikas and some Pannattis (used for concentrating), become causes for Sati.
(even akusalas become causes as in upanissayapaccaya)

In other words, Controller or Master of Sati does exist, but as Causes.

Dhammasangani:

What on that occasion is the faculty of mindfulness (satindriyaṃ)?

The mindfulness which on that occasion is recollecting, calling back to mind; the mindfulness which is remembering, bearing in mind, the opposite of superficiality and of obliviousness; mindfulness as faculty, mindfulness as power, right mindfulness—this is the faculty of mindfulness that there then is.

So, Sati is intentional calling back to mind.

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yes, in that quote I did mean kusala moment(s).

However, it is also true that these kusala moments with panna, at least for most of us, are intermittent and the moments of akusala are considerably more numerous.

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It is true that these Panna moments are intermittent for most of us, and the akusala moments are considerably more numerous.

But, “what we develop” is these intermittent Panna-moments.

So, by “intentional development” of these these intermittent Panna-moments, the Kusalas such as Sati, Samadhi, Panna become developed.

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So right view is the key and that comes about by hearing, studying and considering true Dhamma . When that is developed other factors also develop.

I think there are many misunderstandings about what sati of the level of satipatthana is these days.

People concentrate on various objects for long periods and think they are doing satipatthana.But satipatthana, if it is the real one, is intimately connected with the perception of anatta.

In the sutta it says that if satipatthana is developed for 7 days one would become an anagami or arahat. Yet how common are they?
It shows just how subtle the development of satipatthana is.

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Yes, right view runs ahead. (“Samma ditthi pure javam”.)

Yes, Suttas back it.

Mahāvedallasutta:

“Kati panāvuso, paccayā sammādiṭṭhiyā uppādāyā”ti?
“Dve kho, āvuso, paccayā sammādiṭṭhiyā uppādāya—
parato ca ghoso, yoniso ca manasikāro.

“How many conditions are there for the arising of right view?”
“There are two conditions for the arising of right view:
the words of another and proper attention.

The problem comes in the below.

It is true that when right view is developed other factors also develop up to a certain degree, but not up to the fruitful level.

We can see it in the same place in Mahāvedallasutta.

According to that, right view needs additional supports, in order to become fruitful.

“Katihi panāvuso, aṅgehi anuggahitā sammādiṭṭhi cetovimuttiphalā ca hoti cetovimuttiphalānisaṁsā ca, paññāvimuttiphalā ca hoti paññāvimuttiphalānisaṁsā cā”ti?
“Pañcahi kho, āvuso, aṅgehi anuggahitā sammādiṭṭhi cetovimuttiphalā ca hoti cetovimuttiphalānisaṁsā ca, paññāvimuttiphalā ca hoti paññāvimuttiphalānisaṁsā ca.
Idhāvuso, sammādiṭṭhi sīlānuggahitā ca hoti, sutānuggahitā ca hoti, sākacchānuggahitā ca hoti, samathānuggahitā ca hoti, vipassanānuggahitā ca hoti.
Imehi kho, āvuso, pañcahaṅgehi anuggahitā sammādiṭṭhi cetovimuttiphalā ca hoti cetovimuttiphalānisaṁsā ca, paññāvimuttiphalā ca hoti paññāvimuttiphalānisaṁsā cā”ti.

“When right view is supported by how many factors does it have freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom as its fruit and benefit?”
“When right view is supported by five factors it has freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom as its fruit and benefit.
It’s when right view is supported by ethics, learning, discussion, serenity, and discernment.
When right view is supported by these five factors it has freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom as its fruit and benefit.”

The word “Samatha (serenity)” here, described clearly in the Commentary as “Eight Samapattis”

samatho ti vipassanāpādikā aṭṭha samāpattiyo.

‘Samatha’ means Eight Samapattis which are the bases for Vipassana.

And well described again in the same place in the Commentary.

kammaṭṭhāne khalanapakkhalanaṃ chindantassa, vipassanāpādikāsu aṭṭhasamāpattīsu kammaṃ karontassa, sattavidhaṃ anupassanaṃ bhāventassa arahattamaggo uppajjitvā phalaṃ deti.

And again very well described in the Sub-commentary.

mariyādāya thirabhāvakaraṇaṃ viya samatho yathāvuttabhāvanādhiṭṭhānāya sīlamariyādāya daḷhabhāvāpādanato. Samāhitassa hi sīlaṃ thirataraṃ hoti. samīpe valliādīnaṃ haraṇaṃ viya kammaṭṭhāne khalanapakkhalanacchedanaṃ ijjhitabbabhāvanāya vibandhāpanayanato. mūlakhaṇanaṃ viya sattannaṃ anupassanānaṃ bhāvanā tassā vibandhassa mūlakānaṃ taṇhāmānadiṭṭhīnaṃ palikhaṇanato. Ettha ca yasmā suparisuddhasīlassa kammaṭṭhānaṃ anuyuñjantassa sappāyadhammassavanaṃ icchitabbaṃ, tato yathāsute atthe sākacchāsamāpajjanaṃ, tato kammaṭṭhānavisodhanena samathanipphatti, tato samāhitassa āraddhavipassakassa vipassanāpāripūri. Paripuṇṇavipassano maggasammādiṭṭhiṃ paribrūhetīti evametesaṃ aṅgānaṃ paramparāya sammukhā ca anuggaṇhanato ayamānupubbī kathitāti veditabbaṃ.

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A common commy-counter-question for “akāliko” is how does one make a donation to a person who is a Path-winner if Path-consciousness only has one single mind moment and immediately followed by many fruition moments.

This is a common suttanta question to prove the commentaries wrong. It is one of their favorites.

Sayadawgyi answered this question by saying that in Sri Lanka, the monks would do vipassana while eating and the donors would serve the monks while they were eating/practicing. This practice of donors serving you while eating common even today. So a donor can give while the Path is being attained. This is how one can give to a person who attains path knowledge. Probably impossible to only donate to Path though.

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Okasa bhante,

When it comes to the donations, the commentary of Dakkhiṇāvibhaṅgasutta clearly mentions that, “the person entered upon attaining Sotapattiphala (sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanna)” is not only “the person at path moment”.

ettha heṭṭhimakoṭiyā tisaraṇaṃ gato upāsakopi sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno nāma, … , uttamakoṭiyā pana maggasamaṅgī sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno nāma. Etassa dinnadānaṃ tato uttari mahapphalameva.

Here, as the lower end, “even an upasaka who has gone forth Tisarana” is called “sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno”. … And as the upper end, “the person with path” is called “sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno”.

It is a range of people, when it comes to the donation.

In addition to that, the possibility of donating to “the person at path moment” is also mentioned clearly in the Commentary.

Kiṃ pana maggasamaṅgissa sakkā dānaṃ dātunti? Āma sakkā.
Āraddhavipassako hi pattacīvaramādāya gāmaṃ piṇḍāya pavisati, tassa gehadvāre ṭhitassa hatthato pattaṃ gahetvā khādanīyabhojanīyaṃ pakkhipanti. Tasmiṃ khaṇe bhikkhuno maggavuṭṭhānaṃ hoti, idaṃ dānaṃ maggasamaṅgino dinnaṃ nāma hoti. Atha vā panesa āsanasālāya nisinno hoti, manussā gantvā ¶ patte khādanīyabhojanīyaṃ ṭhapenti, tasmiṃ khaṇe tassa maggavuṭṭhānaṃ hoti, idampi dānaṃ maggasamaṅgino dinnaṃ nāma. Atha vā panassa vihāre vā āsanasālāya vā nisinnassa upāsakā pattaṃ ādāya attano gharaṃ gantvā khādanīyabhojanīyaṃ pakkhipanti, tasmiṃ khaṇe tassa maggavuṭṭhānaṃ hoti, idampi dānaṃ maggasamaṅgino dinnaṃ nāma.

Is it possible to give dāna to a “the person at path moment” ? Yes, possible.
…

Because the time duration of an offering is relatively very large compared to the path moment, “path moment” can arise at any moment within a donating process.

(The second Pali sentence onwards in the above passage describes how to give dana to such a person. I’ll translate them later if I could have time.)

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I will also have to put these very common suttanta arguments into the document as well.

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