Reimagining Poems, Creative Dhamma

[Dōgen]

Hello again esteemed friends & venerables.

As you might now, I’m working on Therīgāthā translation. In case you didn’t know, there was the case of a creative translation made by Matty Weingast, which wasn’t so much as a translation but a complete reimagining, original poems of the said guy.

Now, the big problem is the book was originally marketed as a translation of theri’s poetries. It’s not, it’s inspired by the stories, and this false marketing is a big problem.

However, I believe there’s something to the approach, if handled correctly.

Now, I love these poetries, but they’re beautiful in Pāli, and often something get lost in the translation - either the rhythm (usually the first casualty), depth of meaning in some passages, and hopefully never the dhamma, and even if it all just works out, sometimes a direct faithful translation is just not good poetry.

Some of these stories could be better told in any other target language with a little degree of freedom. Basically, original poetry inspired by the gathas.

So I was wondering, from a most conservative point possible, what would you think a proper way to go about this?

• On a project like this, clearly referencing the original inspirations (if quoting passages / stories verbatim) and clearly remarking that this is original poetry, not a translation - this is non-negotiable.
• For the voice in poetry, for example, if I want to retell the story of Vimala Theri or Bakula Thera , I find it problematic to use 1st person voice because I’m not them.
• However, perhaps writing in a way to remove direct references to said elders, but still making clear remarks that this poetry was inspired by Thera/Theri X (So I’m creating something of a completely new arahant, a fictional arahant, to use 1st person voice, which is clearly remarked as inspired by X).
• As for sales, I think ideally it should be accessible for free online and sold for money. As a lay person, should I be allowed to touch that money?

I would hope to think it would enable a deeper Saṅghānussati in the creative process, allow people to connect to the elders in poetry written for the music of the language, inspire people to put themselves in theris/theras barefoots, and so on.

Do you think there’s merit in such an undertaking or is it a fool’s errand? I’m especially eager to hear your voice Ven. @bksubhuti.

Thanks a lot.

[bksubhuti]

This is too much for me to reply to.
I think there is a priority to get the MN commentary translated, or the commentary to the 4 nikayas. I’m not sure why this is the last priority of translators, but it surely is the last priority of translators.

I think you are falling into the same realm where you yourself critique others from. Therīgāthā has been translated many times… time to move on to un-chartered territory.

[Dōgen]

Thank you for your insight, Bhante.

I’m translating not to English, but to Turkish, where nothing except a very dry Dhp/Snp translation exists… I started with Thig because relative ease of doctrinal elements as I build a vocabulary of Dhamma terms in Turkish. I thought something like this would be a something done effortlessly and inspired as I progressed on it.

But I appreciate your point on priorities.

Thanks for taking time to reply.

[Gijjhakuta]

@Dōgen

I started with Thig because relative ease of doctrinal elements as I build a vocabulary of Dhamma terms in Turkish

That makes a lot of sense. Vv and Pv would also be good in that domain. While they are verse, the Pali is rather straightforward.

As far as “re-imagining”, a huge part of SE Asian culture is nothing but retelling of Buddhist stories. The Thig is slightly different, as you point out, having the actual voices of arahants talking about their own stories.

Personally I find all of the English translations of the Thig to be inspiring and have never once felt the need to having anything that wasn’t at least trying to be an actual translation. I think the sincere reader of the texts needs to be responsible for their own deep engagement with and inspiration from the text. What is “good poetry” is wildly subjective, so any attempt to improve just on that basis is going to always be lacking and can potentially be problematic.

The reason Weingast’s original work resonated with so many modern readers was because he changed the texts to address more modern attitudes and spiritual issues. Kind of like how lots of highly processed food is very tasty to the target consumer.

From the most conservative position, I think if creative work is going to be done for the purposes of inspiration (and not simply retelling stories) it is better to not name or reference specific arahants at all. Because if you do, you run the very real risk of your words getting lodged in people’s minds as those of the named arahant. Especially if you are a really good writer, lol.

Honestly I think that even if Weingast’s book had been marketed from the very start as original poetry, having it organized person by person for the actual Theri’s would have still made it extremely problematic.

I think that labeling things as “inspired by” so and so—while the intent may be to give “credit” to the original arahant—what it actually does is add a possibly unearned legitimacy to the novel creation.

Also, I think it’s better if your audience has had little to no contact with sutta translations in their own language, then it’s better to devote time to translations (if that’s possible) rather than creative work. The ideas that enter a person’s mind first tend to be the ones that stick. So isn’t it better to at least give people the chance to connect with the original first?

[Dōgen]

First of all, thanks for taking time to write a thorough response.

@Gijjhakuta

As far as “re-imagining”, a huge part of SE Asian culture is nothing but retelling of Buddhist stories.

I admit I’m quite ignorant about these things. What kind of stories are retold? Buddha’s stories or others’? How faithful are they to the originals and/or do they ever happen in a modern setting?

@Gijjhakuta

Personally I find all of the English translations of the Thig to be inspiring and have never once felt the need to having anything that wasn’t at least trying to be an actual translation. I think the sincere reader of the texts needs to be responsible for their own deep engagement with and inspiration from the text. What is “good poetry” is wildly subjective, so any attempt to improve just on that basis is going to always be lacking and can potentially be problematic.

This is true from a certain perspective, but I wonder how much of my fascination with Thag/Thig was because I was already engrossed with a certain Buddhist perspective.

Considering both the personal content and open disclosure of attainments, I don’t think these poems were ever meant for public consumption outside of sharing among monastics (as it would be against vinaya to make such claims as I believe it to be the case?). Now that they’re long parinibbana’ed, I think it’s safe for us to discuss them.

@Gijjhakuta

I think that labeling things as “inspired by” so and so—while the intent may be to give “credit” to the original arahant—what it actually does is add a possibly unearned legitimacy to the novel creation.

Yeah, this is a double edged sword it seems. There’s problems if you refer inspiration, there’s problems if you just write not giving references.

@Gijjhakuta

Also, I think it’s better if your audience has had little to no contact with sutta translations in their own language, then it’s better to devote time to translations (if that’s possible) rather than creative work. The ideas that enter a person’s mind first tend to be the ones that stick. So isn’t it better to at least give people the chance to connect with the original first?

Also good point. But I also enjoy exploring modern ways to create poetries about dhamma describing the spiritual process of today’s practitioners. Perhaps there’s ways to do both, but one without direct references to the corpus (even if ultimately inspired by it in spirit).

Thanks again for interesting insightful points, good friend.

[sunnat]

I don’t know. I read the dhamma pada a lot. Different versions.

For example there is a version that gives a translation of a verse, then the story, then the pali with the literal translation followed by an expanded explanatory translation followed by commentary. Included in all that is an illustration that tries to convey the meaning of the verse. Lots of interpretations that don’t detract from the dhamma. What really matters is that while one is reading and pondering one is not breaking any precepts and the mind is inclined towards the dhamma and one may be inspired. If a translation/poetic interpretation is understood to be at least an attempt to help people turn towards and align with the dhamma it is worthwhile imo.