Do bhikkhus often ask one another about their spiritual attainments (such as jhanas or Nibbana)? Is it common for one monk to directly ask another about their progress to determine whether they should take them as a teacher or trust their guidance on insight (vipassana) or concentration (jhana) practice?
This is going to vary greatly between different monastic communities. There is of course no Vinaya prohibition. But some communities will discourage these kinds of discussions and some will promote them. I think what will matter more to monastics is how helpful someone’s advice is and how good of an example they set.
No, it is discouraged.
Just assume people have attainments, and thus one can avoid being rude to actual people with attainments.
Also, on the 10 subjects of frequent recollection by monks, it seems that only at the end of the life of a monk did the fellow companions ask if one has attained the fruits.
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I have it in one of my talks somewhere but I probably lost it now.
Generally speaking, monks will disrobe and attainments often are lost if real or overestimated. With that, the previously ordained monks will tell others and people will start talking and then the monk who no longer has his attainment or it was overestimated in the first place. He will be faced with a dilemma of being respected for something that does not exist within him. Imposter syndrome happens even without that just from mere accumulation of seniority. It can be all the more difficult with that unintended situation of a non-attainment.
Now, there is also a case where an attainment is actually still existing and real (very rare) unless you think that overestimation is less common than actual attainments ( 
). Then there is still a problem, because a real attainment should not be known to lay people, and you cannot say, “Well the Buddha did this.” The Buddha has different rules, just as a king has different rules for himself regarding who can enter a royal park. There is also a chance that the attainment that was never “lost” was still due to overestimation. Lax vinaya rules and different behaviors can seem to be justified by the monk and then others will follow the same way. “My teacher did it and he is enlightened, so it is okay to do it.” This is not an uncommon saying.
So what does the lay person do or judge the monk with?
He should simply say, “This monk has knowledge, inspiration or experience to offer me.”
If that is true, then there is a gain for the lay people in the appropriate way.
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Thank you for the information, Venerable Sir. This got me thinking.
I wonder if there are monks (and nuns) with genuine attainments who end up disrobing and why they would do that. If they attain the Jhanas and even the path and fruit knowledges, I feel like they would be more confident than ever in the ascetic life and be happy all the time, knowing that if they keep living the ascetic life, they will be reborn in the Brahma realm. If they can discern past lives, they would also know the transient nature of life and how insignificant enjoying sensual pleasures in a single life is. If they have the divine eye, they would be able to see the lower realms and feel a sense of urgency to continue living the ascetic life.
Maybe some of those who disrobed did so because they weren’t able to enter into the Jhana again for some reason and then felt discouraged after losing their attainments so they returned to the lay life. So maybe attainments being lost is the reason why monks disrobe.
I think it’s better for someone with Jhana to long for the Brahma world, even though that longing is not skillful, than for them to disrobe and return to the lay life because at the very least, that longing will motivate them to maintain their attainments and continue living the holy life until the end of their life.
Yes, many disrobe who go beyond the jhānas. Many have disrobed who finished the Pa-Auk course.
One of my friends from France finished the samatha course and I think finished dependent origination (Pa-Auk) and then decided that he was pretty good at robot dancing and maybe had a chance to do it. He disrobed for this reason (!).
Very few end up teaching as lay people. Beth Upton was a nun who disrobed. She is and independent teacher. Generally speaking, someone who has really attained Nibbāna who is a monastic is said in the texts to never be able to disrobe. She was a 10-precept sayalay and the texts speak of sāmṇeras or higher, so it is in question. Another friend of mine who told me he was a once returner disrobed and is married. He disputes this and talks of migasālāsuttaṃ
I never saw the other Matrix sequel movies, but I still remember this meat scene often. I have discussed this with another friend who disrobed (who is now married with a kid). If you are around long enough, most of the monks you know will disrobe. He told me he also thinks of this scene too. You can decide if this is really possible for someone to have right view and disrobe. Jhāna is just jhāna.
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Of course I would need a follow-up quote. I have asked this of learned scholars who used my tools before TPR and before that, TPP. However, now with epitaka extension, and doing 200+ glossary terms, I’m able to find a TPR quote directly..
natathā ariyā.
Noble Ones are not like that.
tepana tena tena maggena pahīne kilese puna naupagacchanti.
They do not return to the defilements abandoned by that path.
puthujjanabhāvaṃvā heṭṭhimāriya bhāvaṃvā na gacchanti.
They do not return to the state of ordinary people or a lower noble state.
anukkamena saddhādīnaṃ indriyānaṃ paripakkabhāvameva upagacchantīti.
They only attain the state of maturation of faculties such as faith, in due course.
sabbañcetaṃ ariyamaggasseva ānubhāvena siddhanti sototināmaṃ mūlappabhavabhūte tasmiṃ maggeeva niruḷhanti daṭṭhabbaṃ.
All this is accomplished through the power of the Noble Path itself, and therefore, the name sota (stream) must be understood as rooted in that Path, which is its fundamental origin.
tassa sotassa ādito pajjanaṃ pāpuṇanaṃ sotāpatti.
The initial entering, the attainment, of that stream is sotāpatti.
sotāpattiyā adhigamamāno maggo sotāpattimaggo.
The path by which sotāpatti is attained is the sotāpatti-magga.
athavā, dhammasota samāpanno ariyoti pavuccatīti vuttattā sabbe ariyasantānagatā lokiya lokuttarabhūtā bodhipakkhiyadhammā upari sambodhiparā yanatāvasena anupādisesanibbāna parāyanatāvasenaca anivatta gatiyā pavattamānā yathāvuttena atthena sototi vuccanti.
Alternatively, since it is said that “one who has entered the stream of Dhamma is called a Noble One,” all the constituent factors of enlightenment, both mundane and supramundane, that are present in the continuum of a Noble One and are advancing towards full enlightenment and towards Nibbāna without remainder, without turning back, are called sota in the aforementioned sense.
taṃ sotaṃ ādito pajjanti pāpuṇanti etāya paṭipadāyāti sotāpatti.
The attainment, the initial entering of that stream, is sotāpatti by this practice.
sotāpattica sā maggocāti sotāpattimaggo, pathamamaggasaṅkhātāya sotāpattiyā aṅganti sotāpatti yaṅgantihi aṭṭhakathāyaṃ vuttaṃ, maggotica patho upāyo.
And since it is both sotāpatti and the path, it is sotāpatti-magga. Indeed, in the Commentaries, it is stated that it is an aspect of sotāpatti, which is designated as the first path, hence sotāpattiyaṅga. And magga means a way or a means.
nibbānaṃ maggeti, nibbānatthikehi maggīyati, kilese mārento gacchatīti maggotica vadanti.
They also say magga because it leads to Nibbāna, because it is sought by those who desire Nibbāna, and because it goes by killing defilements.[54] vibhāvaniyaṃ pana
[54] In the Vibhāvanī, however,
ariyamaggasotassa ādito pajjanaṃ etassāti sotāpatti.
“The initial entering of the stream of the Noble Path is for this person, hence sotāpatti,”
puggaloti vuttaṃ.
is stated concerning a person.
taṃ na sundaraṃ.
That is not good.
na hi puggale pavatto sotāpattisaddo katthaci diṭṭhoti.
For the word sotāpatti in connection with a person is nowhere seen in the Pali Canon.[55] etena tassa maggo sotāpattimaggoti idaṃpi paṭikkhittaṃ hoti.
[55] By this, the statement “his path is sotāpatti-magga,” is also rejected.
sotāpattimaggena sampayuttaṃ cittaṃ sotāpattimaggacittaṃ.
The mind associated with the sotāpatti-magga is the sotāpatti-magga-citta.
paramatthadīpanī
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That’s interesting, Venerable Sir. I’ve watched videos of Beth Upton. The videos are really good and I believe in her.
As for others who disrobed, it’s interesting and still hard to believe. I don’t mean to compare myself to anyone nor do I want to criticize anyone but even as a lay person now, it doesn’t feel that hard to develop a sense of urgency especially when I learn about the horrors of the previous world wars (the most horrifying is the massacre of nanking and also the atomic bomb), imagining the suffering that soldiers and citizens had to go through, and also the suffering of lower realms. Also, when I read about people in all walks of life having an accident, an illness, or an unfortunate fate on the news or on social media, it makes me scared but in a good way. It makes me be mindful of death and that death is possible anywhere anytime. I feel like that kind of contemplation, fear, and sense of urgency would be enough to keep a monk from disrobing especially if they have succeeded the course.
There are also many suttas that can help us to be mindful of death and of the suffering of lower realms so knowledge of the suttas would definitely come in handy.
I guess Jhana isn’t everything because those with Jhana may end up disrobing and those who might not have Jhana yet may have the mental fortitude to remain in the holy life for the rest of their lives.
I hope I can realize Arahantship, the supreme fruit of the ascetic life, when I ordain. I know it will be harder than expected, but I am willing to try everything I can to destroy and prevent bad thoughts from arising. The hardships of the ascetic life is nothing compared to the suffering beings experience in wars or lower realms.
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This is what The Buddha said in relation to telling others about attainments (that one does have). Do you think this statement only applies for monks, or a general attitude that should be followed by anyone with attainments?
kathañhi nāma tvaṃ, bhāradvāja, chavassa dārupattassa kāraṇā gihīnaṃ uttarimanussadhammaṃ iddhipāṭihāriyaṃ dassessasi!
How can you, Bhāradvāja, for the sake of a vile wooden bowl, display an extraordinary human Dhamma, a psychic marvel, to householders!seyyathāpi, bhāradvāja, mātugāmo chavassa māsakarūpassa kāraṇā kopinaṃ dasseti, evameva kho tayā, bhāradvāja, chavassa dārupattassa kāraṇā gihīnaṃ uttarimanussadhammaṃ iddhipāṭihāriyaṃ dassitaṃ.
Just as, Bhāradvāja, a woman displays her private parts for the sake of a vile coin, even so, Bhāradvāja, you have displayed an extraordinary human Dhamma, a psychic marvel, to householders for the sake of a vile wooden bowl.netaṃ, bhāradvāja, appasannānaṃ vā pasādāya…pe… vigarahitvā…pe… dhammiṃ kathaṃ katvā bhikkhū āmantesi – ‘‘na, bhikkhave, gihīnaṃ uttarimanussadhammaṃ iddhipāṭihāriyaṃ dassetabbaṃ.
This, Bhāradvāja, is not for the clear faith of the unfaithful…pe… having censured…pe… having given a Dhamma talk, he addressed the bhikkhus: ‘Monks, an extraordinary human Dhamma, a psychic marvel, should not be displayed to householders.yo dasseyya, āpatti dukkaṭassa.
Whoever displays it incurs an offense of dukkata.
cūḷavaggapāḷi
It should be noted that because of this incident, monks are not allowed wooden bowls for any reason. Only iron and clay bowls are allowed. Stainless Steel is allowed by great standards.
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Disrobe reason could also be that the monk doesn’t like so many vinaya rules, house rules, social expectations etc, but the meditation is very good.
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Yes, Venerable Sir. I think the statement should apply to everyone with attainments. Based on the quote from culavaggapali, It doesn’t feel right for even a lay person to reveal their attainments.
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