In some Buddhas’ dispensation, chief disciples were the first to awaken and ordain so they were the most senior disciples. In other Buddhas’ dispensation, million of disciples awakened and ordained before the chief disciples. In the current Buddha’s dispensation, the chief disciples awakened and ordained after many other Arahants. My question is when the Buddha and the Sangha go for alms round, can chief disciples walk right behind the Buddha and in front of other monks even if they ordain after them?
I know seniority in the current Buddha’s dispensation is based on who ordained earlier, but was the seniority based on position in previous Dispensations where there were millions of Arahants because if even the chief disciples ordained after them, I doubt they would have to pay homage to all of them or be behind them on almsround because the chief disciples are the Buddha’s left and right hand disciples.
If chief disciples have to pay homage to those who ordained before them, do they only have to pay homage to great disciples who ordained before them and not to disciples who aren’t part of the 80 great disciples?
Im not sure about how much seniority matters for alms round. But in terms of general courtesy, even Sariputta and Moggallana would still refer to monks more senior than them as “Bhante” (elder) and the more senior monks would call the chief disciples “Avuso” (younger).
Thank you for taking the time to answer. Correct me if I’m wrong, but before the Buddha’s Parinibbana, I think monks mostly referred to each other as avuso regardless of their seniority.
yo vo, ānanda, mayā dhammo ca vinayo ca desito paññatto, so vo mamaccayena satthā.
The Dhamma and the Vinaya that I have taught and laid down for you, Ānanda, will be your Teacher after my passing.
yathā kho panānanda, etarahi bhikkhū aññamaññaṃ āvusovādena samudācaranti, na kho mamaccayena evaṃ samudācaritabbaṃ. And, Ānanda, just as bhikkhus address each other with the term ‘āvuso’ (friend) now, they should not address each other in that way after my passing.
theratarena, ānanda, bhikkhunā navakataro bhikkhu nāmena vā gottena vā āvusovādena vā samudācaritabbo.
A senior bhikkhu, Ānanda, should address a junior bhikkhu by name, by clan, or by the term ‘āvuso’.
navakatarena bhikkhunā therataro bhikkhu ‘bhante’ti vā ‘āyasmā’ti vā samudācaritabbo.
A junior bhikkhu should address a senior bhikkhu as ‘bhante’ (Venerable Sir) or ‘āyasmā’ (Venerable).
Seniority is the most genius form of organisation ..you can put 1000 monks and nuns in a Stadion .and in a very short time we would find our place…I experienced it several times in crowds of monastics ( not 1000)and it always worked very well…
What does your question has to do with liberation? Especially when such a scenario does not apply nowadays and if you ever become a Buddha in the future you would know how to deal with this.
Often, even just 1 second matters for seniority. How does that happen?
It happens when 3 monks are ordained in a group together and how the names are called. Should it really matter? Yes.. they often arrange the monks in a 3 monk group, based on the “robing date.” So often the monks who re-ordain from other traditions get lined up accordingly.
As another said.. even if we have 1000 monks, we can understand how to collect our food and and where to sit. It is highly respectful and keeps “order” within the community. Ordination , literally means, when you enter the “order” or how you are sorted against other monks.
I made a whole post on this on americanmonk website.
It’s easier to organise when there’s a majority group, and there’s some monks who’s familiar with the seniority of the major group and just have to tell them one’s own vassa and they can sort you in the right sitting. But let’s say if it’s 1000 monks, of at most 4 or 5 people who knows each other and thus there’s 200+ group of monks who doesn’t know much about the seniority of each other, it might be more chaotic to find out and having to have a lot of asking around, unless there’s some area marking which can be helpful, 40+ vassa and above, 30-40, 20-30, etc…
It is not chaotic, and I have lived in monasteries with 600+ monks (Pa-Auk main).
Did you know you can guess a number between 1-1000 within 20 guesses by just asking someone higher or lower? If the person systematically picks the exact middle between the remainder .. Yes, and you can guess much less than that.
But it is not 600 monks all sorting themselves. It is 599 sorted monks and a new one arrives. It takes very few guesses to sort him out. Why? Because each monk already knows his own place plus a bunch of other monks who surrounds him. It is very easy and for sure.. no chaos. So unlike a machine sorting algorithm, each person who is guessed is self-aware where to sort the new monk. The guesses are less than systematic and very educated guesses.
The chaos comes when the sorting system breaks. For instance the female side usually argue endlessly about who gets food first.
Mahayana bhikshunis say they are fully ordained so they should go first.
Mahayana bhikshunis say that sayalay is made up
Sayalays say they are theravada and do not eat dinner, so they should go first.
Sayalays say that Theravada Bhikkhunis are extinct and not recognized in Myanmar
Controversial-Ordained-Bhikkhunis say they should be at the top.
I’m not sure if this was ever resolved at Pa-Auk and if were, it would still be an issue. So we need order. Either by age in the lineage or age by years lived as human. Something needs to be there. You might think, why all the arguments over food? The reason is there is no order. It is not orderly. This is what keeps things peaceful and harmonious.
I once had to help a monastery I stayed in to decide this issue, because the abbot was away on some dhamma talk trip.
What I came up with is the following:
Theravada Bhikkhu first, then Theravada Bhikkhunī, then Mahāyana Bhikkhu, Mahāyana Bhikkhunī, sikkhamānā, sāmaṇera, sāmaṇerī then Sayalay and other equivalent.
Those I didn’t label the tradition, goes by Theravada then Mahāyana.
There’s also some who prefer all males first then females, (less of an issue if there’s 2 lines of 2 separate food buffet, one for male, one for female) then some prefer to mix in all Bhikkhu/Bhikkhunī regardless of tradition by just counting vassa.
For the last one, it’s problematic to those monks who doesn’t recognise Mahāyana as properly ordained according to Theravada Vinaya, and thus have to have a lay person to help scoop the food to our bowl.
The order I suggested has no such issue, of course, it would make a Sayalay of 30+ years, a great meditation teacher to be behind a sāmeṇerī who just got ordained for much less time. That actually happened.
Female monastics always behind the monks ..then “Bhikkhunis” in this case accepted to keep the harmony, all other females in robes according their ordination time …
once or twice I was in a bigger mixed crowed in Subhodarama Tempel, Peradeniya and it worked fine…
especially when there is less ego in an unclear situation…
(The seniority order is genius..the trouble comes from the decline of the Sangha..)
Please let me know the place so that I can avoid it. Nobody will be happy with any arrangement for the reasons I stated. But maybe it could work in a muslim country with a chinese community that was previously Mahayana bred and happens to have a Theravada Buddhist Temple in the area. Seems strange that there would be a temple big enough in Malaysia that could attract that many monks and nuns. Or this was some short term festival otherwise.
The Aggasavaka are seniors by appointment. They had the duty to perform, so they were very close to the Buddha when travelling together.
The righthand savaka was the highest in panna.
The lefthand savaka was the highest in iddhi/power.
Venerable Ananda was the highest in memory/learning.
Venerable Maha Kassapa was praised by the Buddha as equal to Him in appearance and ability. So, he was tasked to lead the Sangha after the Buddha passed.
I see, that makes sense. If I don’t attain enlightenment in this life or in heaven, I hope I can become an Aggasavaka like Venerable Sariputta or a Mahasavaka like Venerable Mahakassapa or Venerable Yasa who was also an early disciple (7th disciple)
)and it always worked very well…
