Are the Pa Auk monasteries in Georgia and California good places for ordination? I’m thinking of ordaining there in the future. How do these places compare to Pa Auk Pyin Oo Lwin?
Ordaining in the USA is a big mistake.
Lack of Support
First of all, there are not many Vinaya monks. Sayadaw U Aggañña is pretty much it for Pa-Auk. Georgia is empty most of the time out of the year, except for some nuns who might be there. Florida is empty. There are no renewals for visas and the situation for Sayadaw U Aggañña is very volatile. The previous monk left LA due to visa issues.
Healthcare
California has free healthcare for poor people who are not disabled or single mothers. Georgia and Florida do not provide Medicare for those types of residents. Obamacare starts when you are at or above the poverty line.
Sīma
On top of that, you would need to be ordained by monks living in the USA with a sīma created in the USA, a water sīma or defaulting to a gāma sīma. But it is not recommended. Many sīmas are often made in man-made bodies of water or concrete structures inside that water. One monk at a $9 million monastery showed me a party boat in a man-made pond and told me that was the sīma. I told him it was not allowed, but it would default to a gāma sīma (which is what happens when a sīma is broken). If there are no other monks in the village, you are okay. If one passes through, ordination is broken. You don’t want to know more about sīmas, how they become faulty, the uncertainty that exists in the world. Even if you want to live in the USA, to ordain in Asia inside a Vinaya tradition is best.
I know two monks from Panditaramas who re-ordained because of how their sīmas are created. One monk lost 11 vassa when he reordained in Pa-Auk.
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Thank you for this information, Venerable Sir. I think Pa Auk Pyin Oo Lwin might be the best place for ordination, even if the country might not be that safe. Other Asian countries are good alternatives.
Myanmar is “safe” (generally speaking) if you are not outspoken against the government. Who says American is Safe, especially with healthcare issues and crimes that don’t qualify as crimes ($800-1000 theft threshold limits). If you are a monk who does not get involved with politics, the government will be nice to you. Myanmar still supports Buddhism. I get gratis visa renewals when I’m there. I went to ITBMU sponsored by the Government. However, when interacting or remotely speaking about a king, despite his ethics, it is a good idea not to have them be angry with you.
Most kings in the world have been quite fierce. It is a fact of life. There is only a small pocket of time of democracy, and that will disappear soon too.
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Yes, Venerable Sir. My main concern was the Burmese government’s draft/conscription. Some say they are even forcing monks from certain monasteries to enter the draft, though that’s just what I have heard. Students and monks are supposed to be exempt from the draft but I was worried they might wait at the airport after I graduate and it would be before I ordain. Some people just pay the government on monthly basis or something and they don’t have to enter the draft.
I re-ordained due to doubt about being registered for the draft, but it was not necessary.
Unless you are absolutely required to join the military, then you need permission from the government.
However, if it is a “might be called”, then you can see the policies and not the rumors. You will see that they don’t force monks to disrobe and join the army. If you have doubt.. go ahead and ask a senior monk or the government itself.
The rule about ordaining is “Active Duty”. Just before I answered that I was not under government service contracts, I recalled that it would be impossible for anyone in the USA to ordain, and there were certainly monks from the USA who were ordained. I also justified other reasons too but vowed to ask the next day to be sure. That monk accused me of lying and said my ordination was incomplete.
The best thing to do is ask. I had a friend speak to a recruiter. They said it was impossible for me to be called at my age (at that time I was 30).
Speak to people “in the know” directly instead of just rolling in thoughts.
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That makes sense, Venerable Sir. When the government reinstated the draft, the chief of the neighborhood or town (I don’t know the proper name of the title) came to my parents’ house to inquire about me and my brothers. He wasn’t calling us into the draft but he just wanted to ask about us. My family told them we were studying in the US because we actually are. And since students are exempt from the draft, they just left. We didn’t receive a draft letter or anything so we weren’t part of the draft. And we know a relative who works at the place where they recruit people and he said we haven’t been called for a draft. Someone from the neighborhood in Myanmar who’s only a few year older than me but already graduated and have a job avoids the draft by having his parents pay the chief of the neighborhood every month so the chief doesn’t put him on the draft list.
It is called “Quarter Head” in translated English (if not Myanmar lang as well).
Even at pa-auk, they have “Kuti In Charge” in certain sections.
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Yeah, being grabbed at the airport for the draft is something governments do. You even here about people who didn’t even realize they were legal citizens being grabbed. I haven’t heard about it in Myanmar, just in general.
It would be hard to know in advance if you could prevent that from happening. I wonder how a Myanmar national who ordains outside of Myanmar receives new government documents with their ordained name (assuming that’s a thing there). You could get the best ordination you could find in the US and then re-ordain once you arrived. But if monks usually have passports with their ordained name and photo, showing up as a monk with a lay-name passport could be a big red flag.
Ah, samsara.
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Can try Malaysia, a lot of people can speak English, there’s Pa auk monasteries here, I am not sure about the quality of the training provided.
Healthcare no issue, only issue is visa, having to stay only 3 months at a time, but you get to travel to lots of monasteries to open up your horizons at least.
Or Na Uyana, Sri Lanka, they have Pa-Auk methods there too. It’s good enough training with the Vinaya exams, which I have an Anki deck for that if you ever need.
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I was probably just overthinking. I think I’ll be fine even if I go back to Myanmar as a lay person. The possibility of death is always present in any place so I might as well ordain in Myanmar rather than in the US. Even in the deva or brahma realm, if someone has been living there for a long time and forgets their lifespan, from their perspective, they could die and disappear from the realm anytime if their merit or lifespan runs out. So even in those realms, death could happen at an unexpected time.
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I warn about Malaysia in my Where To Ordain article. @Paññādhammika , please be a little more respectful to foreigners. You are native Malaysian, but you would have to be totally out of the “know” to not know the problems that monks have had in the past. It is not suitable to move around as a new monk. Ask around, especially from pa-auk (something you don’t seem to associate with either). This is very dangerous advice.
Please know: Malaysia is a Muslim country. Don’t let anyone let you believe otherwise. They are not always nice to monks when you travel, and foreigner monks usually need to travel.
Anyone who says they can get a long term visa should be asked where he lives, and where his visa says he should be living. Religious worker visas are limited to one monk per monastery.
I have also heard about bad visa experiences in Malaysia. Monks having to get sent back to their home country on a failed visa renewal trip, not just back to the country they came from. (For example, a monk from Canada travels from Malaysia to Sri Lanka and back to renew their Malaysia visa. Entry is rejected and they are only allowed to leave to Canada, not back to SL.)
There is a wonderful Buddhist community in Malasia. But I can’t imagine why anyone would think it’s a good idea to ordain there as a foreigner. Visas are difficult even in Buddhist countries.
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This post has been removed due to the request of Ven Paññadhammika who wrote it.
That alone should be very clear that SBS or any monastery in Malaysia is not a good place for a foreigner to ordain. Why? He should be free from forced travel and visa runs and focus on his training. He should be free from dangers and have a stable place to live.
Previous post that contained this sensitive quote was removed as requested by @Paññādhammika
I would be very surprised if my senior monastic friend who is living in Malaysia at a monastery where his visa says he is allowed to live, told me wrong information or I would be surprised that the laws have recently changed. Do you know the Malaysian religious worker visa laws?
Please enlighten me how long term renewable visas are possible in Malaysia. I know the answer already 
It should also be known that SBS is an EBT monastery. SBS is not part of Classical Orthodox Theravāda, nor does SBS make any attempt to claim to be Orthodox Theravāda. This is a Classical Theravāda Discussion Group. Please read the FAQ.
Lastly and most importantly: I have a question for you. So, up until now, you have never heard of any monk having any visa or border crossing problems?. I find this difficult to believe. I know two monks who have disrobed as a direct result to visa and border crossing problems directly related to Malaysia.
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I make it PM since I don’t have permission yet.
Good choice. And I doubt you will ever get permission from SBS to post the details about how SBS does immigration. I know what is done, and you also know what is done.
Your PM also notes that you do indeed know of monks or monks to be who have had problems with border crossings. I have removed your post as requested and I removed the sensitive quote from you which was probably why you requested it to be deleted. I left the other quote which is harmless.
I will lock this post.
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