Is it Ok for a monk to press the “Purchase” or Proceed Order in an application to buy himself a needed book online, or his things?
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By transactiom on his brother’s Amazon account (clearly his borther’s money)
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By transaction on his own “robe-fund” (transfered to his kappiya bank’s account by anyone)
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by using his own bank account (while saying am not touching money, but money on his own Debit Card, given him from laymen occasionally) Touch no money/no cash, but purchase or Paypal …etc everything online he loves by clicking?
Some monks here went for ceremonies in the village, at the end of the date he got usd 100, by a reslip (similarly the receipt from Pa-Auk POL -Allowable Invitation), but afterthat there was a layman soon transfered that $100 to his own bank account, right after that he proceeded an order online for a new iPhone via his current phone.
→ which case are these better and which is not? pure??
Thx.
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What is allowable or not does not matter. It best to limit your involvement.
Just send links if you need something. That is it. Don’t try to push things and be independent.
The reason we have rules is so we can depend on others for our livelihood. It should be reflected upon again and again.
This is a protection:
8. pabbajitaabhiṇhasuttaṃ
‘parapaṭibaddhā me jīvikā’ti pabbajitena abhiṇhaṃ paccavekkhitabbaṃ,
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Sounds like you should leave. If you like vinaya, you have to stay at vinaya monastery.
This forum is not a teaching ground for monks who are new and have no proper teachers.
If you have a teacher, and you want to ask, then this is a good place.
Send me a message and I can help find a proper place for you in your country.
Allowable still matter.
And …Leave what, bhante?
It does not deny that your hints are doubtlessly great, simultaneously however there have been useless and daft alluding.
Anyway, I would love to see more and more of your word “loving kindness” in your vainglorious blog, that people around the world, esp in your homecountry, will believe that is true kindness. The poor is often talk about money, ones who have no vinaya often care about it. Don’t you agree? Be honest to yourself, bhante whatever. whereas keep saying that term but fathom little to empty about what exactly metta-karunā is. You are somewhat undeserved it, we are afraid.
As they say - and it is well known - that empty vessels make the most noise.
Thanks for your excellent advice and I really love your unbenevolent anf conceited suggestion too, though.
When I said you should leave, i meant leave your monastery, not this forum… If the monks you are living with are not practicing morality well, you should leave. This is the Buddha’s benevolent advice. I’m only trying to advise the same way.
Despite your rude and disrespectful speech and perhaps pretending to be a beginner, I will answer.
It is not good to arrange by yourself.
What is vinaya?
- You should not buy with brother’s account. It is a command to exchange money which is his. I think this would be “wrong speech” with allowable requisites. This yields a dukkata object for you. No problem for other monks. There is a chart listed in the BMC … try to read that book.
- I don’t understand this example
- I think most first world people would say that a bank card is just as good as money. The vibhanga says that
anything used in business or trade is considered money.
Mula texts trump over anything else. The technicalities should not be considered because this is a case where the great standards actually makes something unallowable. Usually we use the great standards to make things allowable only. Like stainless steel bowls, rubber slippers , or polyester cloth robes.
Walk into any store in the usa and hold a bank card and ask the guy behind the register “Is this good for business or trade?” they will undoubtedly say yes.
Do the same thing holding a pa-auk or Thai requisite slip. They will undoubtedly say no.
A US Dollar is actually nothing more than a bank note. It says so on the bill. It is actually a signed check from the US Treasurer. Google a picture and look closely. You will see that it is indeed signed with “Bank Note” on the top. So when people say a personal check is a piece of paper… so is the usa dollar. The answer is found in the vibhanga: “Is it used in business or trade?”
remote image:
It is best to involve a 3rd party to do the purchasing. Sending a link to an invited donor is the best way to get things from amazon. That is what I do with donors or parents, etc.
You could use Zoom remote desktop control with a remote kappiya or donor do things with proper speech. “I need such and such”. They figure out on their own what buttons to press. You cannot command them “press this”. In the end, this is done by kappiya.
Your speech to me was not proper and you are alienating those that are helping .
Try not to look for loopholes and follow proper vinaya according to the vibhanga.
Thank you,and very much appreciated the latter long explanation for my foregoing dhamma-vinaya questions.
It really hits the nail on the head that we shall avoid involvement in money-trading methods, (e.g even Credit-Card tap, dip or sweep). As you mentioned, calling via Zoom or sending a link to a kappiya also have been my applied method if really need be.
Again, I do not deny and must confess that hitherto your detailed replies at large beat me totally as always. I very often found things helpful to my own research and practical life from your own experiences.
I am not against anyone for the wholesome deeds, that is all.
Last but not least, Wish you be healthy and free from danger, bhante.
Sorry for minor typo errors and my bad English as I am not called an native English speaker.
Sure, no problem. I’m glad I can help.
I’m glad my writings can help you, or give you some contemplation.
If you have not read the BMC, please do. Both volumes. Where Ajahn Thanissaro says, “some traditions do not agree with this. It is best to check with your monastery and their practices.” You can usually rest assured that, pa-auk, na-uyana, and usually wat khao related monasteries do not do this.
However, I have recently heard of a pa-auk monk at varanasi monastery (in Myanmar) recently wrote about bank cards (Wave Pay) and how if one uses proper speech, it can be made allowable. I tried to tell him about the vibhanga but it was difficult. Electronic money is very new to common public in Myanmar, so I don’t think they have the same perception as Westerners do.
I might write an article on this later. You are the 2nd person to bring this up. Usually that inspires me to write when things pop up like this.
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