Near Death and Theravāda

General Theravada topics
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Sorry, I didn’t meant to quote Burgs as Theravada authority, hence I said burgs, not classical Theravada.

Just a few side questions,

  1. is Near death experience phenomena explained by our mind made body leaving the physical body?

  2. Is mind made body the citta produced materiality?

  3. is mind made body the same as the brahma realm rupa form body?

  4. As seen in DN 1, the 7 kinds of annihilationism views, there’s 3 bodies, plus 4 arupa mind which the annihilationists takes as a self which ceases at death. The 3 bodies are physical, devas and brahma bodies. What’s the difference between deva and brahma bodies that they are classified as sense sphere vs form realm? Which one is the mind made body referring to and which one is kamma/mind produced materality?

  5. Is nimitta related to Near death experiences? I heard from both they described a colour more vivid than vivid, more red than red etc.

  6. What is it that differentiate the formless Jhānas from the form absorption Jhānas, as the 5 physical senses already are shut down in the form absorption Jhānas? Why the sutta says going from 4th Jhāna to arupa that perception of form is dropped? I am on the absorption Jhāna camp, but I haven’t figured out how to answer this if lite Jhāna people ask me.

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The mind-made body is only possible for those who have mastered jhanas.

Digha Nikaya 11
Kevatta (Kevaddha) Sutta To Kevatta

The Mind-made Body
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties. Just as if a man were to draw a reed from its sheath. The thought would occur to him: ‘This is the sheath, this is the reed. The sheath is one thing, the reed another, but the reed has been drawn out from the sheath.’ Or as if a man were to draw a sword from its scabbard. The thought would occur to him: ‘This is the sword, this is the scabbard. The sword is one thing, the scabbard another, but the sword has been drawn out from the scabbard.’ Or as if a man were to pull a snake out from its slough. The thought would occur to him: ‘This is the snake, this is the slough. The snake is one thing, the slough another, but the snake has been pulled out from the slough.’ In the same way — with his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to creating a mind-made body. From this body he creates another body, endowed with form, made of the mind, complete in all its parts, not inferior in its faculties.

Near death experience is thinking, unusual feelings and so on.

For one who is genuinely close to death a vision related to the future realm may appear.

There is not much on mind-made bodies in the texts and anyway who could have such powers at this time?

Even mastering jhana is not easy. Let alone developing such skill after that mastery.

The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.”
-Vsm. XII.8

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I have read some cases where they really are brain has no signal at all, and floating above the operation table describing exactly what the surgeons are doing.

And some case where they even go beyond the wall of the room their physical body is and described accurately what’s on the other room after they come out of it.

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Near death experience is exactly what it is. Near to death, but not actual death.
In Theravāda, once the death cuti citta occurs and there is no going back. If that cuti citta did not take place, then there was no death. The rest can just be other phenomena and other experiences. Unfortunately, I had a friend disrobe over this issue. He was senior and respected, but had a spiritual conflict with NDE and Theravāda. He eventually disrobed after 25 vassa.

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:pray: :pray: :pray:

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Seems like not a thing worth disrobing for.

What conflict did he had?

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I tried to tell him, but it was already too late. If you consider it “near to death” rather than “death and coming back”, then it can still sort of fit, but not perfectly.

When monks disrobe, they usually hide and do not reply to emails, and then after they disrobe, they inform you.

There could always be other reasons, but he said that was the main reason. He did not disrobe for a woman. He also did not marry for 2 years and as he told me, he kept his precepts until marriage. As a previous mahathera, he knows real 3rd precept so I trust he was keeping that when he told me. He is happy now and still happily married.

Note: If you disrobe for a woman who meets you as a monk, it is usually destined for failure since the woman falls in love with the monk, and not the lay person after he disrobes.

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