A persistent problem that’s coming up both while meditating and not is the visualization of concepts. For example, when listening to talks I may hear the word citta and a picture comes up in my mind of it. This is obviously not understanding it and gets in the way of really getting it. So I’m wondering a few things.
Is there a Pali term for this kind of mental imagery?
Is there a way for getting past it. ie not thinking in mental imagery
In addition this comes up in meditation too similarly, strange images will be seen and I know they are not real (and unrelated to the first kind of mental imagery as they don’t relate to visualizing concepts and don’t occur in daily experience, they’re just strange objects)
Is there a Pali term for these and again, how best to deal with labeling or understanding them, this time in meditation
The mind naturally produces concepts. And that is fine. The way of vipassana is to understand that nature of the mind and see what is real and what is only concept. So the aim is not to eliminate concepts or anything at all - but to understand.
For the development of samatha it is different - then one has to learn how to wisely focus, without attachment, on particular concepts - such as death or the other objects.
Nimitta is relevant for both samatha and vipassana but in vipassana it is the nimitta of the khandhas.
In the practice of Vipassana, how would one best understand the concepts, particularly visual ones, that come into the mind during reflection or study?
Are they seeing? And able to be understood as that? Because it’s not really being seen with the eye.
It is useful to know more about the sense door and mind door processes.
In a sense door process the moment of actual seeing is very short. At that instant color is experienced then other moments and then many mind door processes.
During the mind door process concepts may be taken as object . Say a car was seen - in fact only colors can actually be seen - but due to sanna and so on there idea ‘this is a car’. Satipatthana vipassana can only take realities such as seeing, color, the cittas occurring while thinking, feelings and so on. So while one will still know ‘this is a car’ there can also be moments that know directly the various elements I mentioned.
So a concept like ‘car’ is not an object for vipassana - but the thinking process can be. There begins to be a clearer understanding of the difference between concept and reality.
Ah, so that’s the reason they show up. You mean to say that Sattipatthana Vipassana can take mind-phenomena as an object too right, as far as I know that’s possible
I think you just need to activate your mind more and focus more. I think a lot of people are focusing wrong. I’m not ready to go public with a “method,” but generally speaking … if you were to count to 100 very fast mentally, would you be able to make pictures in your mind?
Also make sure you are using your mind while keeping your body, face, and eyes relaxed. It is so important. There is also a sutta in Anapanasamyutta that mentions relaxing the eyes.
You could also just meditate with your eyes slightly open. This will prevent mental imagery from coming into your view.
That’s a good point. Some of this may stem for the possibility that I haven’t found the proper meditation subject yet. And when unfocused on it in the idle time I do have, other things occupy attention.
The relaxing I try to do but when I’m focusing on something like the breath sensation out the end of the nostrils, my head turns, shoulders clench and slouch, back bends etc. and then I have to focus back on getting in a proper position.
But there is still the issue of visualizing what are supposed to be concepts I should understand. Which happens when I’m listening to Dhamma talks. A kind of synesthesia with certain words or phrases. But I suppose the answer to that is just understand the process by which it arises in mental activity.
You need to understand that by trying to feel the breath physically, you are using the body to do so. It is a trap. The Visuddhimagga (VSM) tells you to wait at the spot where horses drink water. The horses will come.
But you need to engage the mind.
I think that the biggest mistake people make is:
They try to “do things physically” to feel the breath. You breathe all the time without such efforts, so don’t do that in meditation.
They try to have concentration by “just feeling.” That is not engaging the mind; it is a sense-door process.
They try to stare at the location (even with eyes closed). Not only does this create tension and eye strain, but the eyes cannot see. The nimitta is different. Don’t try to “see” anything. You will likely do the wrong thing and fall into a trap thinking you have progressed when actually you are making a bad habit. The mind sees by knowing. This is where people err.
They use their eyes to “feel” the breath by trying to locate it before the nimitta stage.
They don’t understand the difference between light and nimitta.
They don’t comprehend the paññā (wisdom) factor in the meditative mind. A nimitta arises from knowledge. When you experience the real nimitta, you will know it is not visual by the eyes and it is through the mind..
In short, focus on rapid repeated knowing rather than repeated seeing. This aligns best with the Abhidhamma, which is based on meditation and practice.
It is best to meditate with eyes open until comprehension is gained.
By do things physically you mean trying to physically feel the sensation of the breath at the nostrils, end of the upper lip etc.?
If so that makes sense as to why that wouldn’t be the right way to go about things. The sutta describing the practice of it describes knowing whether the breath is long or short.
You still need to know the breath through the sense door of “bodily feeling”, especially in the beginning. If you cannot feel the breath, you do not have a chance. But I have good news for you. If you are alive, then you are breathing!
Once you know the breath by feeling it, you focus on the concept of the breath. Try to do this as soon as possible. This means you only pay attention to anything that remotely resembles anything close to knowing the breath as breath and not the characteristic. You will need to research what concept of the breath is. But generally speaking, if you see a line of cars, you do not focus on color, shape, model, company, size, style. Whatever it is , you know it as “car”. In the same way, you know any characteristic as “breath”. When you know the breath in this way, you won’t care about the quality of the breath or the qualities of the breath. You will only care that you are knowing the breath. This is the concept.
By focusing on the knowing of the concept. You are entering the world of the mind. The nimitta is necessary in order to leave world of the senses. In Abhidhamma, the jhāna takes place continuously in the mind. So engage your mind. Focus on knowing the breath repeatedly and continuously.
Once you know the breath by feeling it, you focus on the concept of the breath. Try to do this as soon as possible. This means you only pay attention to anything that remotely resembles anything close to knowing the breath as breath and not the characteristic. You will need to research what concept of the breath is. But generally speaking, if you see a line of cars, you do not focus on color, shape, model, company, size, style. Whatever it is , you know it as “car”. In the same way, you know any characteristic as “breath”. When you know the breath in this way, you won’t care about the quality of the breath or the qualities of the breath. You will only care that you are knowing the breath. This is the concept.
Thank you, that makes a lot of sense actually. Ties into a separate issue with some non classical Theravada teachers where they criticize the breath not fitting into the mold of imprinting the nimitta of it into the mind, but that explains it.
For the descriptions of the nimitta. You should have already read Mindfulness of Breathing by ven Nyanamoli or the section in the Visuddhimagga. If you have not, you have been wasting your time. The book is found at this link.
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