Life in the Brahma World

General Theravada topics
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Does the Vimana Vatthu mention someone being reborn in the Brahma world?

I’m curious to know how life in the Brahma World is like and how it differs from the deva world? Do Brahmas meditate all the time or are there other ways of enjoying themselves?
I think maybe Brahmas feel pleasant bodily sensations due to joy and rapture even when they’re not meditating. Maybe the jhana experience is also intensified and they feel more happy meditating in the Brahma world compared to when they were humans.

I want to become king of Brahmas in my next life. I was just wondering if the Brahma world is really better than the deva world.

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I don’t think the Vv talks about brahmas at all. You can read more about brahmas in the CIPS.

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The Vimānavatthu primarily deals with rebirth in deva realms rather than Brahmā worlds.

The brahmaloka (Brahmā-world) is a realm of profound bliss, divided into the realms of subtle materiality (Rūpadhātu) and immateriality (Arūpyadhātu). Inhabitants here dwell in the rapture of meditative absorptions (dhyāna) and live in a state of mental purity. The higher heavens are populated by beings immersed in deep meditation, including non-returners (anāgāmin) who eventually descend to the human realm as omens of future Buddhas. Some beings remain in dreamless sleep for eons. In essence, the inhabitants of the brahmaloka reside in a state of incomparable splendor and peace, far surpassing the divinities of the lower realms (kāmadhātu).

On the other hand, the inhabitants of the Brahmā-world are free from sensual desires.

The Visuddhimagga affirms that being reborn in the Brahmā-world is a consequence of significant virtue combined with meditation.

Another thinks, “I shall enjoy the delights of the Brahmā-world,” and with sense-desire clinging as condition he develops loving-kindness, compassion, gladness, and equanimity. Owing to the fulfilment of the meditative development he is reborn in the Brahmā-world. The kamma that is the cause of his rebirth there is kamma-process becoming, and the rest is as before. (Vsm. VII. 18)

Nonetheless, The lord Buddha taught that all realms, even the highest Brahmā-worlds, are still within saṃsāra and therefore impermanent and ultimately unsatisfactory.

The ruler of the Brahmā-world is Mahābrahmā, the “Great Brahmā.” This term also refers to the highest of the three heavens. In (DN 1), the belief in a creator being arises from the misconception of the first Mahābrahmā, who was reborn in this heaven at the beginning of a world cycle. Misled by his own delusion, he falsely imagined himself to be the creator of all beings born after him in the Brahmā heavens. As the King of the Brahmās, his illusion influenced these beings, causing them to adopt this erroneous belief, which they later propagated on Earth when they were reborn as humans.

Now there arises in him, from his dwelling there so long alone, a dissatisfaction and a longing: “O ! would that other beings might come to join me in this place !” And just then, either because their span of years had passed or their merit was exhausted, other beings fall from the World of Radiance, and appear in the Palace of Brahmā as companions to him, and in all respects like him.

’ On this, brethren, the one who was first reborn thinks thus to himself: " I am Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Supreme One, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all, appointing to each his place, the Ancient of days, the Father of all that are and are to be. These other beings are of my creation. And why is that so ? A while ago I thought, ’ Would that they might come ! ’ And on my mental aspiration, behold the beings came."

'And those beings themselves, too, think thus: " This must be Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Supreme, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all, appointing to each his place, the Ancient of days, the Father of all that are and are to be. And we must have been created by him. And why ? Because, as we see, it was he who was here first, and we came after that."

’ On this, brethren, the one who first came into existence there is of longer life, and more glorious, and more powerful than those who appeared after him. And it might well be, brethren, that some being on his falling from that state, should come hither. And having come hither he might go forth from the household life into the homeless state. And having thus become a recluse he, by reason of ardour of exertion of application of earnestness of careful thought, reaches up to such rapture of heart that, rapt in heart, he calls to mind his last dwelling-place, but not the previous ones. He says to himself: "That illustrious Brahmā, the Great Brahmā, the Supreme One, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all, appointing to each his place, the Ancient of days, the Father of all that are and are to be, he by whom we were created, he is stedfast immutable eternal, of a nature that knows no change, and he will remain so for ever and ever. But we who were created by him have come hither as being impermanent mutable limited in duration of life.
‎
Rhys Davids, T. W. (trans.). Sacred Books of the Buddhists, Vol. II: Dialogues of the Buddha. Oxford University Press, pp. 31–32.

If you wish to explore this point in more detail, and the entire sutta more broadly, I recommend referring to Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi (trans.), The All-Embracing Net of Views: The Brahmajāla Sutta and Its Commentaries. If you prefer the BPS edition, it is also available. This work includes a virtuous translation of both the sutta and its commentaries.

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Thank you, this was informative.

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I finally realized it now. Brahmas are happier than devas even when they are not immersed in jhana because their minds are free from lust and desire for sensual pleasures. So, it’s more peaceful in the brahma worlds because you are not constantly being attacked by desire for sensual pleasures.

In the human and deva worlds, we are constantly stimulated by desire for sensual pleasures. We are a slave to our own desires. We may want to eat an ice cream. We may want to watch a movie. Because we constantly desire sensual pleasures, we can’t truly be at peace. Desire for sensual pleasures is like a disease of the mind.

I wish I could be free from desire for sensual pleasures.

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Well, it never really made sense to me that a Brahmā would remain in jhānic bliss all the time. How would the Brahmās interact—with one another, with other deities, with ascetics in the world, or even with the Buddha and the Sangha—if they were constantly absorbed in jhāna?

The following are just suppositions: perhaps jhānic bliss is the way Brahmās sustain themselves. From time to time, they might need to enter jhāna to maintain their presence in those realms, much like beings in the sensual realms need coarse or subtle food for sustenance. But at other times, they might dwell in non-jhānic mental states—still free from sensual thoughts and unwholesome qualities—engaged in other activities that interest them.

PS: this would be true to the perceptive brāhmas of the form realms. Non-perceptive brāhmas, and the brāhmas from formless realms would not be able to leave their jhānic attainments until the end of their lives.

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yes, right, they are not always absorbed in jhana as you say.

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and wishing is not the way to this.
Dispeller of Delusion. Section on Satipatthana

  1. |276| Furthermore, seven things lead to the arising of the
    investigation-o£-states enlightenment factor: (1) asking questions
    (2) the act of cleansing the basis, (3) imparting of evenness to the
    five faculties, (4) avoidance of persons of no understanding, (5)
    1311.cultivation of persons of understanding, (6) reviewing the field for
    the exercise of profound knowledge, (7) being resolved thereon.
  2. Herein, (1) “asking questions” is repeated questioning about
    the meaning of the aggregates, elements, bases, faculties, powers,
    enlightenment factors, path factors, jhäna factors, tranquillity and insight.
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I heard that Brahmas from the formless realms can still practice vipassana. Does this mean they can think like us or are they always absorbed in jhana?

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Beings in formless realms are not able to listen or practice the teachings of the Buddha. Being born there when a Buddha arises in the world is a lost opportunity for spiritual practice.

They don’t have formed bodies, so they can’t have perceptions based on a body, as vision or audition.

When the Buddha decided to teach the Dhamma to the world, he first looked for his two previous masters, but they were already deceased and attained rebirth in the ārūpa-lōkā- one of them in the Sphere-of-Nothingness, the other in the Sphere-of-Neither-Perception-Nor-Non-Perception.

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This is from the Great Chronicles of the Buddha. I believe something similar is mentioned in the Visuddhimagga or its commentary. Buddha attributes (9): Bhagava

The glorious reputation surrounding the Buddha is no empty boast but true to its every detail, and well deserved. In that sense the Buddha’s reputation is pure, unadulterated, un-exaggerated. There are certain personages of wide repute, deserving of them but their repute does not reach the three worlds (i.e. the devaworld, the human world, the Brahmā world).

The reputation attributed to the Buddha is such that the achievers of non-material absorptions, arūpa jhāna can remain in the non-material Brahmā-world (arūpa Brahmā) and contemplate on the nine supreme attributes of the Buddha. Since the Buddha’s fame reaches even the non-material Brahmā-world, it hardly needs saying that this fame spreads in the Fine Material Sphere and the Sensuous Sphere as well.

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This chapter seems to make references to Arūpa brāhmas who were noble followers of the Buddha before being born there. I remember having read in some sutta about non-noble people getting rebirth in the formless realms and returning to this world, and noble people who are reborn in those realms but are not subject to return to this world (because they attain Nibbana in that state). This chapter could be making reference to the latter case.

The same Chronicles of the Buddhas talk about the two masters of Siddhartha Gotama before his Buddhahood. The Buddha didn’t find a way to teach the Dhamma to them. So non-noble beings in the Formless Realms are unfortunate because they can’t learn the Dhamma in those conditions.

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