Hello,
I have a question regarding a Kasina meditation. I wonder, can it be used as a development of samadhi instead of breathing (without yet developing jhana and to try develop jhana by kasina)? For example fire Kasina? If so, could you reccomend some guide how to at best develop Kasina? Sorry if that’s a stupid question I just came across this concept (of Kasinas).
From the Visuddhimagga:
So, after seating himself in the way stated, he should review the dangers in sense desires in the way beginning, “Sense desires give little enjoyment” (M I91) and arouse longing for the escape from sense desires, for the renunciation that is the means to the surmounting of all suffering. He should next arouse joy of happiness by recollecting the special qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma,and the Sangha; then awe by thinking, “Now, this is the way of renunciationentered upon by all Buddhas, Paccekabuddhas and noble disciples”; and then eagerness by thinking, “In this way I shall surely come to know the taste of the bliss of seclusion.” [125] After that he should open his eyes moderately, apprehend the sign, and so proceed to develop it. If he opens his eyes too wide, they get fatigued and the disk becomes too obvious, which prevents the sign becoming apparent to him. If he opens them too little, the disk is not obvious enough, and his mind becomes drowsy, which also prevents the sign becoming apparent to him. So he should develop it by apprehending the sign (nimitta), keeping his eyes open moderately, as if he were seeing the reflection of his face (mukha-nimitta) on the surface of a looking-glass.
29. The colour should not be reviewed. The characteristic should not be given
attention.But rather, while not ignoring the colour, attention should be given by setting the mind on the [name] concept as the most outstanding mental datum, relegating the colour to the position of a property of its physical support.
That [conceptual state] can be called by anyone he likes among the names for earth (pathavì) such as “earth” (pathavì), “the Great One” (mahì), “the Friendly One” (medinì), “ground” (bhúmi), “the Provider of Wealth” (vasudhá), “the Bearer of Wealth” (vasudhará), etc., whichever suits his manner of perception. Still “earth” is also a name that is obvious, so it can be developed with the obvious one by saying “earth, earth.” It should be adverted to now with eyes open, now with eyes shut. And he should go on developing it in this way a hundred times, a thousand times, and even more than that, until the learning sign arises. When, while he is developing it in this way, it comes into focus as he adverts with his eyes shut exactly as it does with his eyes open, then the learning sign is said to have been produced. After its production he should no longer sit in that place;10 he should return to his own quarters and go on developing it sitting there. But in order to avoid the delay of foot washing, a pair of single-soled sandals and a walking stick are desirable. Then if the new concentration vanishes through some unsuitable encounter, he can put his sandals on, take his walking stick, and go back to the place to re-apprehend the sign there. When he returns he should seat himself comfortably and develop it by reiterated reaction to it and by striking at it with thought and applied thought.
Fire Kasina:
Anyone who wants to develop the fire kasióa should apprehend the sign in fire. Herein, when someone with merit, having had previous practice, is apprehending the sign, it arises in him in any sort of fire, not made up, as he looks at the fiery combustion in a lamp’s flame or in a furnace or in a place for baking bowls or in a forest conflagration, as in the Elder Cittagutta’s case. The sign arose in that elder as he was looking at a lamp’s flame while he was in the Uposatha house on the day of preaching the Dhamma.
6. Anyone else should make one up. Here are the directions for making it. He should split up some damp heartwood, dry it, and break it up into short lengths.
He should go to a suitable tree root or to a shed and there make a pile in the way done for baking bowls, and have it lit. He should make a hole a span and four fingers wide in a rush mat or a piece of leather or a cloth, and after hanging it in front of the fire, he should sit down in the way already described. Instead of giving attention to the grass and sticks below or the smoke above, he should apprehend the sign in the dense combustion in the middle.
He should not review the colour as blue or yellow, etc., or give attention to its characteristic as heat, etc., but taking the colour as belonging to its physical support, and setting his mind on the [name] concept as the most outstanding mental datum, and using any among the names for fire (tejo) such as “the Bright One” (pávaka), “the Leaver of the Black Trail” (kaóhavattani), “the Knower of Creatures” (játaveda), “the Altar of Sacrifice” (hutásana), etc., he should develop [the kasina] by using [preferably] the obvious “fire, fire.” As he develops it in this way the two signs eventually arise in him as already described. Herein, the learning sign appears like [the fire to keep] sinking down as the flame keeps detaching itself. [172] But when someone apprehends it in a kasina that is not made up, any fault in the kasina is evident [in the learning sign], and any firebrand, or pile of embers or ashes, or smoke appears in it. The counterpart sign appears motionless like a piece of red cloth set in space, like a gold fan, like a gold column. With its appearance he reaches access jhána and the jhána tetrad and pentad in the way already described.
Thank you for detailed quote!
Could you explain this part regarding fire kasina;
*but taking the colour as belonging to its physical support, and setting his mind on the [name] concept as the most outstanding mental datum, and using any among the names for fire (tejo) such as “the Bright One” (pávaka), “the Leaver of the Black Trail” (kaóhavattani), “the Knower of Creatures” (játaveda), “the Altar of Sacrifice” (hutásana), etc., he should develop [the kasina] by using [preferably] the obvious “fire, fire.”
*
Especially, what is meant be “using any among the names”? Does it mean I should mentally repeat this word?
Also I still have a question regarding the comparison with anapanasati. I can practice the Kasinas without a great development of mindfulness of breathing (I’ve been practicing it for a while but I’m rather far away from jhana also)? In the quoted paragraph (about fire kasina) it’s only mentioned that someone with merit and previous practice should do it, how much merit and practice is enough?
Yes, you can mentally recite “fire, fire” or any of the nicknames given above. The text says you should do this while looking at the kasina and then do the same with your eyes closed.
That refers to someone who can instantly succeed in kasina. If someone has a lot of merit and previous practice, they can attain the counterpart sign with just a single glance.
For anyone else, they need to practice as instructed.
Practice as introduced in a sense of the first paragraph? Like reviewing dangers in sensuality, getting the nimitta firmly established etc.?
If so, the practice as described can be treated as an alternative to anapanasati for development of jhana?
Yes, and also setting up the kasina disk. Those who have a lot of previous practice don’t need to set up a kasina disk. For example, they can just look at a white flower for the white kasina. But those who don’t have previous practice needs to set up a white kasina disk.
Yes, you can do kasina meditation instead of anapanasati to attain jhana. With kasina, you can attain the four formless jhanas as well.
I see. Hm in case of fire kasina the disk might be quite hard to get. But I think it could be easier to make a disk out of water. I have some white, relatively flat bowl. Could it be used as a disk for water Kasina if I pour water to it?
Yes that can be used as a water kasina.
Water kasina
One who wants to develop the water kasióa should, as in the case of the earth kasióa, seat himself comfortably and apprehend the sign in water that “is either made up or not made up,” etc.; and so all the rest should be repeated in detail (IV.22). And as in this case, so with all those that follow [in this chapter]. We shall in fact not repeat even this much and shall only point out what is different. 2. Here too, when someone has had practice in previous [lives], the sign arises for him in water that is not made up, such as a pool, a lake, a lagoon, or the ocean as in the case of the Elder Cú¿a-Sìva. The venerable one, it seems, thought to abandon gain and honour and live a secluded life. He boarded a ship at Mahátittha (Mannar) and sailed to Jambudìpa (India). As he gazed at the ocean meanwhile, the kasióa sign, the counterpart of that ocean, arose in him. 3. Someone with no such previous practice should guard against the four faults of a kasióa (IV.24) and not apprehend the water as one of the colours, blue, yellow, red or white. He should fill a bowl or a four-footed water pot1 to the brim with water uncontaminated by soil, taken in the open through a clean cloth [strainer], or with any other clear unturbid water. He should put it in a screened place on the outskirts of the monastery as already described and seat himself comfortably. He should neither review its colour nor bring its characteristic to mind. Apprehending the colour as belonging to its physical support, he should set his mind on the [name] concept as the most outstanding mental datum, and using any among the [various] names for water (ápo) such as “rain” (ambu), “liquid” (udaka), “dew” (vári), “fluid” (salila),2 he should develop [the kasióa] by using [preferably] the obvious “water, water.” 4. As he develops it in this way, the two signs eventually arise in him in the way already described. Here, however, the learning sign has the appearance of moving. [171] If the water has bubbles of froth mixed with it, the learning sign has the same appearance, and it is evident as a fault in the kasióa. But the counterpart sign appears inactive, like a crystal fan set in space, like the disk of a lookingglass made of crystal. With the appearance of that sign he reaches access jhána and the jhána tetrad and pentad in the way already described.
Thank you
I add some from a discussion Nina van gorkom had:
dsg
The meaning of kasina is: encompassing all. We talked about the earth
kasina: we cling to earth. Table, chair, food, the cloths we buy, it is all
earth. The aim of samatha is detachment from sense objects. The colour of
the earth kasina should not be attractive, as the Vis. says, otherwise one
clings to it. It is most important to understand and develop the
jhanafactors. To know when there are the hindrances. Thus, a high degree of
sati and panna are needed so that one can distinguish between attachment,
lobha, and detachment, alobha.The development of jhana is not a matter of just looking at the kasina or
trying to concentrate on it. If one sees a mental image it is important to
realize: is there lobha or alobha? This image can be due to accumulated
tendencies in former lives. It should be seen just as it is: because of
conditions citta experiences it. When it has bliss as result, this
enthusiasm and joy should be thoroughly investigated, otherwise one may
mislead oneself all the time. Enthusiasm and joy can arise with lobha and
with alobha. This can and should be investigated in daily life. Even when
there is detachment it can be immediately followed by attachment, and all
such moments should be known.Certain effects of the jhana developed without sati and panna may be similar
to jhana developed with sati and panna. Only the person who develops jhana
can find out: is there kusala citta with detachment and understanding, or is
there akusala citta with attachment?I read in the Visuddhimagga about the development of special powers such as
divine eye in the case of someone who has mastery of the four jhanas. He
should use the fire kasina, the white kasina or the light kasina (Vis. XIII,
95 f.f.). <..it should be stopped at the level of access and extended
there… It is only what is visible within the area to which the kasina has
been extended that can be seen…> It is described that visible objects that
are not within the focus of his fleshly eye come into the focus of his eye
of knowledge. They are as if seen with the fleshly eye, and then the divine
eye has arisen. They are: <visible objects that are inside his belly,
belonging to the heart basis, belonging to what is below the earth’s
surface, behind walls, mountains and enclosures, or in another
world-sphere->
Vis. XIII, 100: <But this is an obstacle for an ordinary man. Why? Because
wherever he determines ‘Let there be light’, it becomes all light, even
after penetrating through earth, sea and mountains. Then fear arises in him
when he sees the fearful forms of spirits, ogres, etc., there owing to which
his mind is distracted and he loses his jhana. So he needs to be careful in
seeing what is visible.>The Vis. refers to the following sutta: M.S. no 128, Defilements (Upakkilesa
sutta). This sutta also deals with the light manifestation and the
appearance of visible objects. The Buddha said to Anuruddha, Nandiya and
Kimbila, that formerly, when he developed jhana, the light manifestation and
the appearance of visible objects disappeared because of defilements. He had
to know defilements such as doubt, sloth and torpor, etc. When he had too
much energy concentration fell away. He had to realize those defilements at
the moment they occurred. He also had to know very precisely the
jhanafactors which were to be developed: initial thought, discursive
thought, etc. After he had developed jhana he attained arahatship. This
implies also the development of insight. As we know, the Buddha penetrated
the dependent origination while sitting under the Bodhitree.
We see that a very precise knowledge of citta and cetasikas is
indispensable.Also jhanacitta should be known as anatta. See the satipatthanasutta, the
application of Mindfulness on citta: mahaggata citta (jhanacitta) is
mentioned under citta. Thus, no matter one develops jhana or not, in the end
all realities should be known as they are.
Nina Van Gorkom:
The Conditionality of Life
Samadhi, concentration, developed in samatha, is right concentration on the medita- tion subject. It inhibits the hindrance which is sensuous desire (kama-cchandha). As calm grows samadhi also develops. Concentration can be miccha-samadhi, wrong concentration, or samm¯a-sam¯adhi, right concentration. Without panna¯ which knows precisely when kusala citta arises and when akusala citta, wrong concentration can be taken for right concentra tion. Someone may mistakenly believe that calm arises when he just sits and for example looks for a long time at a kasina (disk) which is among the meditation subjects of samatha. Instead of true calm which is wholesome, there is clinging to quietness.Not merely intellectual understanding of the jhana-factors is needed for the development of calm but also right understanding which discerns precisely their different characteristics when they arise. When one underestimates the difficulty of developing jhana, wrong con- centration is bound to arise. It is difficult to distinguish between different jhana-factors such as vitakka and vic¯ara. While we are thinking, vitakka and vic¯ara perform their functions, they arise together; but do we discern their different characteristics? Do we know the characteristic of pıti, rapture, and can we distinguish it from sukha, pleasant feeling? When we find out for ourselves how difficult it is to distinguish between these jh¯ana-factors, we shall understand that a high degree of panna¯ is indispensable for the development of the jhana-factors necessary for the attainment of the different stages of jhana
Nina van Gorkom: As regards the subjects which are learned by sight (such as coloured kasinas and the cemetery meditations), the Visuddhimagga (IV, 31) states that in the beginning one has to look closely at the meditation subject, and that later on one acquires a mental image (“sign”, in Pāli: nimitta) of it; one no longer needs to look at the original object. At first the mental image is still unsteady and unclear, but later on it appears “a hundred times, a thousand times more purified…” The original object, for example a coloured kasina or the earth kasina, could have flaws, but the perfected mental image which is acquired when one is more advanced, does not have the imperfections of the original object one was looking at in the beginning. This perfected image is called the counterpart sign (paṭibhāga nimitta).
At the moment the “counterpart sign” appears there is a higher degree of calm and concentration is more developed. This stage is called “access-concentration” (upacāra samādhi). The citta is not jhānacitta, it is still kāmāvacara citta (of the sense sphere), but the hindrances do not arise at the moment of “access concentration”. However, the jhāna-factors are not developed enough yet to attain jhāna, and moreover, there are still other conditions needed to attain it. One has to “guard the sign” (nimitta) in order not to lose the perfected mental image one has developed. “Access concentration” is already very difficult to attain, but “guarding the sign” which is necessary in order to attain jhāna is also very difficult. The conditions for guarding the sign are, among others, the right dwelling place, suitable food, and avoidance of aimless talk. One should “balance” the five “spiritual faculties” (indriyas) which are the following cetasikas:
saddhā (confidence in wholesomeness)
viriya (energy)
sati (mindfulness)
samādhi (concentration)
paññā (wisdom)
Confidence should be balanced with wisdom so that one has not confidence uncritically and groundlessly. Concentration should be balanced with energy, because if there is concentration but not enough energy there will be idleness and jhāna cannot be attained. Too much energy and not enough concentration leads to agitation and then one cannot attain jhāna either. All five indriyas should be balanced.
From the foregoing examples we see that samatha cannot be cultivated without a basic understanding and careful consideration of the realities taught in the Abhidhamma which are in fact the realities of daily life. One should know precisely when the citta is kusala citta and when it is akusala citta. One should know which realities the jhāna-factors are and one should realize as regards oneself whether or not the jhāna-factors are developed. One should know whether or not the cetasikas which are the five indriyas (faculties) are developed, whether or not they are balanced. If one does not have right understanding of all these different factors and conditions necessary for the attainment of “access concentration” and of jhāna, one is in danger of taking for “access concentration” what is not “access concentration” and taking for jhāna what is not jhāna. Neither “access concentration” nor jhāna can be attained without having cultivated the right conditions.
Kasiṇas are often hidden from the public and not talked about as a first object, and since most people are not successful, that increases the rarity of it being discussed.
Asubha first 5 body parts are given as a meditation subject during the sāmaṇera head shaving. Almost all novice monks get the instruction with the first clipping.
32 parts of the body is a gateway to kasiṇa. It is taught by Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadawgyi if they do 4 elements as a first object.
Skeleton and white kasiṇa are noted to be easier than other objects.
I would put some faith in the choice of Ven. Buddhaghosa who describes jhāna using the earth kasiṇa.
Bhante, I have a few questions then
So if I’d like to practice kasina, going by 4 elements → 32 parts → kasina is gonna be a good way? If so is true, can these types of meditative practice in this order be safely learned without an access to any local sangha (so pretty much with books, suttas, commentaries, videos, asking in forums like this one etc.)?
If kasinas are not much of talked as the first object, are there other types of practices that can be used as such other than anapanasati and mentioned 4 elements meditation? Or other types of practices (or other meditative objects like breath in case of anapanasati) are gonna be bad or worse as for the first meditative object?
Asubha first 5 body parts are given as a meditation subject during the sāmaṇera head shaving. Almost all novice monks get the instruction with the first clipping.
So Samanera’s are ussualy getting the Ashuba meditation on first 5 body parts as sort of a “first” object (instead of anapanasati or 4 elements) for them?
Thank you
The Visuddhimagga and the Buddha in one of the Rahula Sutta’s specifically recommends not to use anapanasati as a starting meditation practice.
Usually the starting practice given is Buddhanusati, recollecting on the Buddha, typically by reciting Buddho (other more detailed instructions should be saught from authentic teachers) until one has developed joy as mentioned in the Visuddhimagga quote above.
Typically the way of practice is making merit through offerings to our shrine, to the monks and needy and chanting. As well as keeping the 5 precepts to the best of our ability and renewing them and confessing when we can’t keep them.
Then we practice bhavana, again typically through the 4 protective practices:
recollection of the Buddha (and dhamma and sangha)
metta (and the other brahmavihara)
Asubha through recollecting the 32 parts of the body
recollecting on death
By recollecting on the Buddha we develop joy, faith and confidence
Metta creates the right conditions for practice
Asubha leads to dissatisfaction with samsara
Death causes an urgency to practice.
The 4 protective practices are bhavana which is still one of the 3 ways of making merit it is to create the right conditions and mind to really mediate.
After that traditionally the meditation practice proper is taken up such as any of the 40 Kammathan in the Visuddhimagga.
This thread talks about other objects.
Yes that thread is good and it makes some excellent points, to summarise what I meant was:
We shouldn’t rush into taking up a proper meditation subject as it should be taken as a firm commitment.
First we practice the 3 fields of merit which includes bhavana meditation, usually one of the four protective practices.
After we are firm in this i.e. offer, chant and reflect every day for some time then we take up a meditation practice, depending on our mental inclination and advice of a teacher.
This could be any of the 40 Kammathan. If it’s kasinas then usually earth is first because it is the most gross/physically. A disk can be made with reddish craft clay on a wooden circle such as a breadboard etc.
I have few questions to that,
Can these protective practices be also used “simultanously” (I mean like, choosing one of them depending on the day and mood etc.)? Or I should rather stick to one of them and develop it for a while? I mean after making merit and keeping the precepts.
Also, are there some good resources on said practices? Or VM is enough? Can these practices be practiced (or started at least) without a teacher?
could you also explain this part:
there is also the way of the dry insight worker.
Bhikkhu Bodhi note 856. to this sutta
. Mp says that the first and second persons are dry-insight meditators (sukkhavipassakā) who attend to conditioned phenomena as their meditation object
At any time conditioned phenomena are available as object - it only depends on whether understanding is sufficient to see them as they really are.
