Is the Theravada system one of direct realism?

Zans · January 12, 2023, 3:47pm

I’m simply not getting it? You are on a Classical Theravada site, where the authoritative position is a realist one, in that objects do arise outside of consciousness, in the form of dhammas, which are ultimate reality, beneath the pannatti (concepts) that we normally understand. Yet you keep claiming objects do not exist outside of consciousness, and generally presenting a confused (and, I suspect drug fueled, since you believe vaping the hardcore hallucinogenic drug DMT is equivalent to jhana) version of subjective idealism, and then turning around and denying that it’s subjective idealism.

Philosophy:

direct realism is the default position of unreflective people. Language itself is oriented toward direct realism. Even though I personally have no belief in it, I still tend to talk in terms of it when speaking with other people. A great deal of these quotes are the same way: the Buddha is addressing a tangent subject and is not going to go to linguistic lengths to avoid this issue. It’s very similar to using the concept of self in everyday conversation.

You don’t need the scriptures for this issue anyways. You don’t even need meditative attainments. All you have to do is sit down and look. Direct realism is clearly wrong. The thought “this object exists in a real world” only appears as a thought…a belief. Your mind is projecting this belief into your direct perceptions in the exact same way it is projecting a self into your experience. Just look.

If realism is true, then you should be able to bring me an object that exists apart from consciousness. Bring me such an object!

I have informed you, repeatedly, what the CT position is, and validated it with well sourced quotes, from unparalleled experts in the field, on the matter. For example of previously shared quotes:

Regarding their theory of sense perception and the nature of the cognitive object, the Theravāda Abhidhamma view is a kind of direct realism that says we do perceive external physical objects.

Karunadasa, Y. Buddhist Analysis of Matter, pp. 149.

"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters. The whole Buddhist practical doctrine and discipline, which has the attainment of Nibbana as its final goal, is based on the recognition of the material world and the conscious living beings living therein.

Karunadasa, Y. Buddhist Analysis of Matter, pp. 14, 172;

This theory ensures that the object of direct and immediate
perception is not an object of mental interpretation but something that is
ultimately real.
-Karunadasa, Y. Buddhist Analysis of Matter, pp. 149.

Thus the Theravādins were able to establish the theory
of direct perception of the external object despite their recognizing the
theory of momentariness.
-ibid. page 146

You keep doing this, and then ending the conversation, rather than admitting you are wrong. For the umpteenth time, your position is not authoritative here, neither is mine, only the Classical Theravada position is. And, that position is a realist one, which is that objects exist outside of consciousness in the form of dhammas, that are not pannatti, as I’ve demonstrated again, and again, with quotes, yet, you think that I’m the one who is just not getting it?

You even responded to the quotes by experts, far beyond your knowledge of the Theravada, and beyond mine, for that matter, with:

So, you’re arguing that your understanding of the Theravada is the correct view, and this is that Theravada is some kind of subjective idealism, but not subjective idealism, in which objects do not exist outside of consciousness, and realism is wrong. You don’t believe the experts, and the entire Classical Theravada school that agrees with them, including the Visuddhimagga, commentaries, Abhidhammattha Sangaha, Abhidhamma itself, and so on. Further, you declare the Classical Theravada school’s view on reality as “the default worldly view,” of “unreflective people,” and, again, I’m the one who is still not getting it?

What?

Also, you seriously need to read the faq for this forum.

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