I was reading a book on Abhidhamma, and there I found an interesting claim. Venerable said that phala (a moment after magga citta) is blissful and all, but yet it is not vedanā. How can there be blissful feeling if there is no citta to feel it?
quote:
Q: When someone experiences the bliss of phala, is it still vedanā?
No, it’s supreme bliss-- not normal bliss. This is because there’s no mental defilement. This phala attainment is supreme bliss. You can’t explain it to others.
page 203
-Abhidhammā: The Buddhist Analysis of Actuality. Part Six: Meditation
Most people confuse Parinibbāna with “Consciousness that takes Nibbāna as an object”.
The latter is what is being said.
Generally speaking, fruition consciousness is “like a jhāna” but instead of the nimitta as the object, nibbāna is the object.
yes.. it is often confused. This is why we need the Abhidhamma and Commentaries. Everything becomes clear and free from distorted and wrong interpretations.
As all consciousness has feelings, then the fruition consciousness also has feelings. So it can be said that the bliss of fruition consciousness is also partly feelings.
It seems like you do not read the posts before post your question.
The object is Nibbāna and it is equated to a jhāna.
There is no sleeping.
I guess you can say this, but it really does not make sense or say anything.
I think what you were trying to say, was that: vedana is present in all consciousness.
Yes that is true. It is a universal cetasika.
When a pleasant feeling is present in any of the three jhānas or a nuetral feeling is present in the 4th jhāna, then this is the vedanā cetasika
Please don’t say anything unless you can find a pali English translation.
Otherwise you are just saying what you feel like saying.
Statements like this, with confidence by the author only, and on this topic are not allowed
The blissful peace of Nibbana has nothing to do with earthly pleasure. It is the peace attained by the cessation of mind and matter in the process of mind and matter. Let us suppose a very rich man sleep soundly. His servants prepare sensual pleasures for him and wake him up. He will surely scold his servants for having interrupted his peaceful sleep. He prefers carefree sleep to sensual pleasure. Some people exclaim, “How nice it is to sleep!” If we find sleep, which is void of any disturbances, we can imagine the bliss of peaceful bliss of Nibbana, which is the end of mind and matter. […] The bliss of Nibbána, is not a single unique element, which belongs to all beings. Each has his own Nibbána. [ABHIDHAMMA IN DAILY LIFE page 112]
Bhante, I did not say Nibbana and sleep/jhana are the same. But the experiences are compared that way.
At the highest jhana (arupa jhana), sankhara is abandoned temporarily, so this is similar to santisukha (calm peace).
The Visuddhimagga explains the four bhūmis or planes as kāmāvacara, rūpāvacara, arūpāvacara, and lokuttara, meaning the sensual sphere, the fine-material sphere, the immaterial sphere, and the supramundane. [102] Therefore dhammā in our statement can be interpreted as including the supramundane state of Nibbāna as well […Nibbana] is beyond what we know of in the three worlds of kāma, rūpa, and arūpa.
That quote is suspect, I’m not sure what he is saying.. monks, even educated abhivaṃsa monk who writes a famous books can say different things. But does not matter and I don’t have time to check it.
I asked for the Pāḷi and I’m afraid you are failing at your ability to look things up when requested, or understand a proper request. Here is a quote from the Abhidhammatthasaṅgaho which is a definitive Pāḷi source.
vitthāragaṇanā
Detailed Count
38. kathamekūnanavutividhaṃ cittaṃ ekavīsasataṃ hoti?
38. How does the ninety-three-fold consciousness become one hundred and twenty-one-fold? The Sotāpatti-magga consciousness associated with vitakka, vicāra, pīti, sukha, and ekaggatā is the first Jhāna; the Sotāpatti-magga consciousness associated with vicāra, pīti, sukha, and ekaggatā is the second Jhāna; the Sotāpatti-magga consciousness associated with pīti, sukha, and ekaggatā is the third Jhāna; the Sotāpatti-magga consciousness associated with sukha and ekaggatā is the fourth Jhāna; and the Sotāpatti-magga consciousness associated with upekkhā and ekaggatā is the fifth Jhāna—these five are called Sotāpatti-magga cittas. vitakkavicārapītisukhekaggatāsahitaṃ paṭhamajjhānasotāpattimaggacittaṃ, vicārapītisukhekaggatāsahitaṃ dutiyajjhānasotāpattimaggacittaṃ, pītisukhekaggatāsahitaṃ tatiyajjhānasotāpattimaggacittaṃ, sukhekaggatāsahitaṃ catutthajjhānasotāpattimaggacittaṃ, upekkhekaggatāsahitaṃ pañcamajjhānasotāpattimaggacittañceti imāni pañcapi sotāpattimaggacittāni nāma.
The Sotāpatti-magga consciousness associated with vitakka, vicāra, pīti, sukha, and ekaggatā is the first Jhāna; the Sotāpatti-magga consciousness associated with vicāra, pīti, sukha, and ekaggatā is the second Jhāna; the Sotāpatti-magga consciousness associated with pīti, sukha, and ekaggatā is the third Jhāna; the Sotāpatti-magga consciousness associated with sukha and ekaggatā is the fourth Jhāna; and the Sotāpatti-magga consciousness associated with upekkhā and ekaggatā is the fifth Jhāna—these five are called Sotāpatti-magga cittas. 739. tathā sakadāgāmimaggaanāgāmimaggaarahattamaggacittañceti samavīsati maggacittāni.
39. Similarly, there are twenty Magga cittas: Sakadāgāmi-magga, Anāgāmi-magga, and Arahatta-magga. 40. tathā phalacittāni ceti samacattālīsa lokuttaracittāni bhavantīti.
40. Similarly, with the Phala cittas, there are forty supramundane cittas. jhānaṅgayogabhedena, katvekekantu pañcadhā.
41. By the combination of jhāna factors, each is made five-fold. 41. vuccatānuttaraṃ cittaṃ, cattālīsavidhanti ca.
The supramundane consciousness is thus said to be forty-fold.