This is a story of Dhammapada Commentary which is quoted by some scholars to support the idea that “Cetana-cetasika has a free will but conditioned”.
(The free will they mention is not of a person but of the cetana-cetasika)
Here the Blessed One says that the merchant Mahadhana could have changed his life.
The Blessed One says that,
If he didn’t misspend the wealth in his first-age, he will become the wealthiest merchant.
If he ordained in his first-age, he will become an arahant.
If he didn’t misspend the wealth in his middle-age, he will become the second wealthiest merchant.
If he ordained in his middle-age, he will become an anagami.
If he didn’t misspend the wealth in his latter-age, he will become the third wealthiest merchant.
If he ordained in his latter-age, he will become a sakadagami.
This is the point raised:
Does a Buddha say that “he could have done something”, if it was completely owned by causes and out of his control ?
What others ask back is:
How can the Freedom of choice (limited or unlimited) exist while becoming conditioned?
so I would ask how would you understand this story in terms of conditioning and free will?
Its hard to say. For sure I don’t think no free will at all would make sense, as that kinda defeats the purpose of Buddhism or really any religion/spiritual belief. One teacher told me that you can only control maybe 10% of your life, the rest is determined by your past deeds. This is hard to grasp in the West because many of us are so used to seeing a society of relative social and wealth fluidity. But when you consider how most of the world was in the pre modern era and even how many societies now are, including basically all of the Theravada Buddhist countries, its easy to see how conditions/circumstance seem set in stone. the rich stay rich, poor villagers stay poor villagers, with no reasonably clear path toward greater living conditions under thier control, at least not in thier current life.
I understand the message of the story (based on your brief as i can’t read Pali) as really just- start early.
I understand what you say about having a limited control(maybe10%) and it is the compromised solution for many Buddhists.
The problem here is, technically we are required to believe volition is completely conditioned, since the Tipitaka says like that. I have seen many (including big monks and scholars) have difficulties in understanding/ explaining how the things happen in this way.
Some say Volition-cetasika is completely conditioned yet at the same time it has a limited choice.
Others say (1) cannot be happened technically, because, if conditioned then no-choice.
Another group say that the decision making part of the mind or volition is random and unconditioned.
Some say part of the mind(90%) is conditioned while the other part(10%) is not.
Some prefer not to think about it, most probably thinking that it is unsolvable or unimportant.
One have to have an idea about this which must be at least safe, if not correct.
Hmm. I think 1 cannot be true, even if it is described that way in the Tipitaka. We have to note that there are many things in the suttas that probably don’t strictly mean what they say from a textualist POV.
“Monks, suppose that this great earth were totally covered with water, and a man were to toss a yoke with a single hole there. A wind from the east would push it west, a wind from the west would push it east. A wind from the north would push it south, a wind from the south would push it north. And suppose a blind sea-turtle were there. It would come to the surface once every one hundred years. Now what do you think: would that blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole?”
“It would be a sheer coincidence, lord, that the blind sea-turtle, coming to the surface once every one hundred years, would stick his neck into the yoke with a single hole.”
"It’s likewise a sheer coincidence that one obtains the human state. It’s likewise a sheer coincidence that a Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, arises in the world. It’s likewise a sheer coincidence that a doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world. Now, this human state has been obtained. A Tathagata, worthy & rightly self-awakened, has arisen in the world. A doctrine & discipline expounded by a Tathagata appears in the world.
Yet we know human rebirth is not merely a coincidence, as there are both commentaries and suttas that describe that it your deeds that control your rebirth, including becoming a human.
Nice to see you posting here Trobinson!
the pali word is adhiccamidaṁ which could be translated as sheer coincidence or rarely or 'without apparent cause or condition (because so rare)"
But we know the Buddha teaches conditionality - as you say. So finally I think the sutta is an encouragement to take advantage of the Buddha’s teaching while we are still alive…
In abhidhamma, isn’t the only consciousness that is caused by kamma are the consciousess that perceive sense objects?
While the consciousness that react to the objects (kusala and akusala citta) are not caused by kamma.
As a human we have a developed prefrontal cortex and it gives us the abiity to think and rationalize and to decide a better course of action. Thus our ability to think is our free-will.
Free will is the ability to make choice. The choices are limited by conditions. Maybe we should call it limited will. Are the decision random? Unless it is made by throwing dice then I believe it is not random.
On the other hand, things that have no will do not have the ability to make choice.
the pali word is adhiccamidaṁ which could be translated as sheer coincidence or rarely or 'without apparent cause or condition (because so rare)
Oh how interesting. Although I would still say that its not correct to take the passages about conditioned results as meaning no free will exists at all. As for the passage Ekocare posted I think the message would be more like- start early (in terms of accumulating merit or working toward enlightenment).
First to know is citta/consciousness. Citta arises one after another like a drum beat or a sound. One citta appears after the previous citta ceases. Each citta can be one of many types of citta. That continuation is explained with Paticcasamuppada or Samsara.
If he didn’t misspend the wealth in his first-age, he will become the wealthiest merchant.
If he ordained in his first-age, he will become an arahant.
If he didn’t misspend the wealth in his middle-age, he will become the second wealthiest merchant.
If he ordained in his middle-age, he will become an anagami.
If he didn’t misspend the wealth in his latter-age, he will become the third wealthiest merchant.
If he ordained in his latter-age, he will become a sakadagami.
I think we have free will. However, past habits in past lives may make certain choices more likely. For example, if someone has ordained as a Bhikkhu in one of his past lives, it might make it more likely for him to ordain in this life too, but it is still dependent on his choice in the present, but the chances of him ordaining would be very high because of past kamma.
I also think even Venerable Devadatta wasn’t “destined” to do the things that he did. However, because he had done bad things to the Bodhisatta in previous lives, it made it more likely for him to do bad things to the Buddha in the present too, but if Venerable Devadatta was able to restrain himself in the present, he could’ve avoided committing bad deeds.
So, I think we have free will but our choices and actions may be influenced and conditioned by past actions from past lives.
In ultimate truth there is no ‘we’ right. And every moment is conditioned.
Cetana, like all dhammas, all cetasikas, is conditioned by several of the paccaya as mentioned by @ekocare .
Many don’t like to hear this: " ohh if I can’t choose to become enlightened then I am lost".
But have faith in conditions - specifically the powerful conditions evoked when learning Dhamma.
When there is increasing confidence in anatta this leads away from trying to manage outcomes. There is the growth of non- attachment that is based on insight and not easily dislodged.
This doesn’t mean there is no viriya.
But samma-viriya, right effort/energy, is blocked by even a hint of forcing because that is rooted in the wrong view that elements can be controlled.
This is interesting.
Is the reason why we know about the Dhamma because we learned it in our past life or simply because we learn it in this life? If we didn’t learn about the Dhamma in our past life, does that mean we also wouldn’t know about it in this life?
You have great interest now in Dhamma and this is not by accident. So while we have no way to be sure of our past accumulations, we can understand that everything has reasons, conditions. It is not mere chance that someone is attracted to right or wrong view.
These days due to the internet and easy travel I think most of the world has some exposure to the Buddha’s words.
But of those not so many are interested enough to delve further. Of those who do delve further many take a wrong way, few see the truth of the ancients of Theravada. Of those who follow Theravada few can determine -even intellectually- that the teaching of anatta is the heart of Dhamma.
This helps us to see how it happens:
But we should not rest: keep accumulating more understanding so that we do not deviate in the future.
Venerable Sunnakkhata ( majjhima nikaya 12) was the Buddha’s attendant before Ananda. He listened to Dhamma and attained Jhana, even to the degree of having special powers of hearing. But he eventually left the Buddha, spoke badly of the Dhamma, and followed ascetics who used to live a life of severe ascetism, copying dogs (dog-duty ascetics). Why, when he had all this going for him? The commentary says that this man had lived 500 consecutive past lives as a ascetic and had these tendencies. Even the Buddha’s teaching couldn’t overcome them. And so we see how dependent past factors are in conditioning behaviour. Of course Sunnakkhata made choices, he had volitional control over what he did but what he couldn’t see was that ditthi (wrong view)and lobha were underlying all his choices; such a hard delusion to see through.
What is apparent as byāpāra-bhāva of citta and other cetasika dhamma is cetana(cittapayogo cetanā). Hence cetana is not a dhamma that can exist from its own side so to speak.
But this is the main culprit of kāraka type ditthis I think. Probably, especially convincing for outsider yogis who have developed supernormal powers etc.
Abhiñña javana cetana can accomplish seemingly miraculous sounding feats. Even for us, accomplishing such tasks like moving a arm or a leg , thinking on a particular topic etc can be seen. Which are accomplished by kamavacara javanas. Even being confused is accomplished by javanas. Javanas accomplish different tasks mainly due to the diversity of cetana.
It just goes to show how deep the the teaching on emptiness is.
As you say that is why it is so deep to understand anatta.
There are only conditioned elements performing their functions but there is an assumption that ‘I’ , the controller, am sitting down, standing up, walking, standing.
