We can discuss this topic.
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I have come across many suttas in the four major sutta nikayas (DN: Digha, MN: Majjhima, SN: Samyutta and An: Anguttara) in which the Buddha makes clear that a birth in the deva- or brahma-worlds does not lead to enlightenment (Nibbana, maggapala). I list just a few here with relevant extracts:
DN 19: ‘Do you remember this, Lord?’ ‘I do, Paiicasikha. At that time I was the Brahmin, the Great Steward, and I taught those disciples the path to union with the Brahma-world. However, Paiicasikha, that holy life does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to superknowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbha, but only to birth in the Brahma-world, whereas my holy life leads unfailingly to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to superknowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana.’
MN 83: ‘Now, Ananda, it may be that you think thus: “Certainly, someone else was King Makhadeva on that occasion.” But it should not be regarded thus. I was King Makhadeva on that occasion. I instituted that good practice [developing the four divine abodes] and later generations continued that good practice instituted by me. But that kind of good practice does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana, but only to reappearance in the brahma-world,’.
SN 1.3 (Bodhi translation): See note 10 explaining that the deva’s ideas of merit do not lead to emancipation.
SN 6.4: [The Buddha:] ‘Alas, sir, Brahma Baka is immersed in ignorance! Alas, sir,
Brahma Baka is immersed in ignorance, in so far as he will say of what is actually impermanent that it is permanent; and will say of what is actually unstable that it is stable; and will say of what is actually noneternal that it is eternal; and will say of what is actually incomplete that it is complete; and will say of what is actually perishable that it is imperishable; and with reference to [a realm] where one is born, ages, dies, passes away, and is reborn, will say thus: “Indeed, this is where one is not born, does not age, does not die, does not pass away, and is not reborn”; and when there is another escape superior to this, will say, “There is no other escape superior to this.” [similar theme in next suttas, SN 6.5 and 6.6]
SN 55.12: Thus, good man, with the breakup of the body, after death, you will be reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world. Now this practice of the brahmins, bhikkhus, is a foolish course, a stupid course; it does not lead to revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. But I, bhikkhus, proclaim the way going-upwards in the Noble One’s Discipline, the way which leads to utter revulsion, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana.
SN 55.54 ‘If he says: “My mind has been withdrawn from the Paranimmitavasavatti devas and resolved on the brahma world,” he should be told: “Even the brahma world, friend, is impermanent, unstable, included in identity. So please withdraw your mind from the brahms world and direct it to the cessation of identity.” ‘If he says: “My mind has been withdrawn from the brahma world; I have directed my mind to the cessation of identity,” then, Mahanama, I say there is no difference between a lay follower who is thus liberated in mind and a bhikkhu who has been liberated in mind for a hundred years, that is, between one liberation and the other.’
AN 7.66: [About Sunetta, who I believe to be a former life of the Buddha, but regardless, he teaches ‘a Dhamma for companionship with the brahma world’, and who became the Great Brahma.] ‘Bhikkhus, though he had such a long life span and continued on for such a long time, the teacher Sunetta was still not freed from birth, from old age and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish. He was not freed from suffering, I say. For what reason? Because he did not understand and penetrate four things. What four? Noble virtuous behavior, noble concentration, noble wisdom, and noble liberation.
A discourse given by the Buddha to the deva king, Sakka:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.21.2x.than.html#:~:text=Having%20been%20given%20leave%20by,human%20beings%2C%20asuras%2C%20nagas%2C
While this explanation was being given, there arose to Sakka the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye — “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation” — as it also did to [his following of] 80,000 other devas
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Devas of the pure abodes can realize nibbana.
Well, now you know.
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A schismatic sect, the Sammitiyas, held the view that devas could not attain and were refuted in the Katthavathu at the 3rd council.
I.3
Now follows a controversy on the holy life (brahmacariya).
[<lO) The holy life’ is of twofold import : Way-culture and
renunciation of the world.[as a bhikkhu ] No deva practises the latter,
but the former is not inhibited,2 except to those of the
unconscious plane. But some, for instance the sammitiyas,
do not believe in any Way-culture among the higher devas '3
as the Paranimmitavasavntti devas, and those beyond them.
Referring to them the Sakavadin asks: " Is there no (holy
life) among devas ~
" In three respects, monks, do the 'people of Jambudipa (~e. ,
India) excel both those of North Kuru and the world of the
*Thirty Devas. What are these three? In courage, in mindfulness
and in the holy life ?"4 Because of this Sutta the
Opponent holds the view, that there cann.ot be two sorts 01
holy life, and therefore he assents.
here is the full pali
Essentially what it says is that the Theravada says that devas can attain but they can’t become monks.
Kathāvatthu
Mahāpaṇṇāsaka
Paṭhamavagga
Brahmacariyakathā
Suddhabrahmacariyakathā
Natthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Sabbe devā jaḷā elamūgā aviññū hatthasaṁvācikā nappaṭibalā subhāsitadubbhāsitānaṁ atthamaññātuṁ, sabbe devā na buddhe pasannā na dhamme pasannā na saṅghe pasannā, na buddhaṁ bhagavantaṁ payirupāsanti, na buddhaṁ bhagavantaṁ pañhaṁ pucchanti, na buddhena bhagavatā pañhe vissajjite attamanā, sabbe devā kammāvaraṇena samannāgatā kilesāvaraṇena samannāgatā vipākāvaraṇena samannāgatā assaddhā acchandikā duppaññā abhabbā niyāmaṁ okkamituṁ kusalesu dhammesu sammattaṁ, sabbe devā mātughātakā pitughātakā arahantaghātakā ruhiruppādakā saṅghabhedakā, sabbe devā pāṇātipātino adinnādāyino kāmesumicchācārino musāvādino pisuṇāvācā pharusāvācā samphappalāpino abhijjhāluno byāpannacittā micchādiṭṭhikāti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Nanu atthi devā ajaḷā anelamūgā viññū na hatthasaṁvācikā paṭibalā subhāsitadubbhāsitānaṁ atthamaññātuṁ, atthi devā buddhe pasannā dhamme pasannā saṅghe pasannā, buddhaṁ bhagavantaṁ payirupāsanti, buddhaṁ bhagavantaṁ pañhaṁ pucchanti, buddhena bhagavatā pañhe vissajjite attamanā honti, atthi devā na kammāvaraṇena samannāgatā na kilesāvaraṇena samannāgatā na vipākāvaraṇena samannāgatā saddhā chandikā paññavanto bhabbā niyāmaṁ okkamituṁ kusalesu dhammesu sammattaṁ, atthi devā na mātughātakā na pitughātakā na arahantaghātakā na ruhiruppādakā na saṅghabhedakā, atthi devā na pāṇātipātino na adinnādāyino na kāmesumicchācārino na musāvādino na pisuṇāvācā na pharusāvācā na samphappalāpino na abhijjhāluno abyāpannacittā sammādiṭṭhikāti? Āmantā.
Hañci atthi devā ajaḷā anelamūgā viññū na hatthasaṁvācikā paṭibalā subhāsitadubbhāsitānaṁ atthamaññātuṁ …pe… atthi devā buddhe pasannā …pe… sammādiṭṭhikā, no ca vata re vattabbe— “natthi devesu brahmacariyavāso”ti.
Atthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Atthi tattha pabbajjā muṇḍiyaṁ kāsāvadhāraṇā pattadhāraṇā, devesu sammāsambuddhā uppajjanti, paccekasambuddhā uppajjanti, sāvakayugaṁ uppajjatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Devesu pabbajjā natthīti, natthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Yattha atthi pabbajjā tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha natthi pabbajjā natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… yattha atthi pabbajjā tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha natthi pabbajjā natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Yo pabbajati tasseva brahmacariyavāso, yo na pabbajati natthi tassa brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Devesu muṇḍiyaṁ natthīti, natthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Yattha atthi muṇḍiyaṁ tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha natthi muṇḍiyaṁ natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… yattha atthi muṇḍiyaṁ tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha natthi muṇḍiyaṁ natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Yo muṇḍo hoti tasseva brahmacariyavāso, yo muṇḍo na hoti natthi tassa brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Devesu kāsāvadhāraṇā natthīti, natthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Yattha atthi kāsāvadhāraṇā tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha natthi kāsāvadhāraṇā natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… yattha atthi kāsāvadhāraṇā tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha natthi kāsāvadhāraṇā natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Yo kāsāvaṁ dhāreti tasseva brahmacariyavāso, yo kāsāvaṁ na dhāreti natthi tassa brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Devesu pattadhāraṇā natthīti, natthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Yattha atthi pattadhāraṇā tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha natthi pattadhāraṇā natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… yattha atthi pattadhāraṇā tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha natthi pattadhāraṇā natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā? Yo pattaṁ dhāreti tasseva brahmacariyavāso, yo pattaṁ na dhāreti natthi tassa brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Devesu sammāsambuddhā nuppajjantīti, natthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Yattha sammāsambuddhā uppajjanti tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha sammāsambuddhā nuppajjanti natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… yattha sammāsambuddhā uppajjanti tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha sammāsambuddhā nuppajjanti natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Lumbiniyā bhagavā jāto, bodhiyā mūle abhisambuddho, bārāṇasiyaṁ bhagavatā dhammacakkaṁ pavattitaṁ; tattheva brahmacariyavāso, natthaññatra brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Devesu paccekasambuddhā nuppajjantīti, natthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Yattha paccekasambuddhā uppajjanti tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha paccekasambuddhā nuppajjanti natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… yattha paccekasambuddhā uppajjanti tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha paccekasambuddhā nuppajjanti natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Majjhimesu janapadesu paccekasambuddhā uppajjanti, tattheva brahmacariyavāso, natthaññatra brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Devesu sāvakayugaṁ nuppajjatīti, natthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Yattha sāvakayugaṁ uppajjati tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha sāvakayugaṁ nuppajjati natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe… yattha sāvakayugaṁ uppajjati tattheva brahmacariyavāso, yattha sāvakayugaṁ nuppajjati natthi tattha brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Magadhesu sāvakayugaṁ uppannaṁ, tattheva brahmacariyavāso, natthaññatra brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Atthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Sabbadevesu atthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Atthi manussesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Sabbamanussesu atthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Atthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Asaññasattesu devesu atthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Atthi manussesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Paccantimesu janapadesu atthi brahmacariyavāso milakkhesu aviññātāresu yattha natthi gati bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīnaṁ upāsakānaṁ upāsikānanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Atthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Atthi yattha atthi, atthi yattha natthīti. Asaññasattesu devesu atthi yattha atthi, atthi yattha natthi brahmacariyavāso, saññasattesu devesu atthi yattha atthi, atthi yattha natthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Devesu atthi yattha atthi, atthi yattha natthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Kattha atthi, kattha natthīti? Asaññasattesu devesu natthi brahmacariyavāso, saññasattesu devesu atthi brahmacariyavāsoti. Asaññasattesu devesu natthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Saññasattesu devesu natthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Saññasattesu devesu atthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Asaññasattesu devesu atthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Atthi manussesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Atthi yattha atthi, atthi yattha natthīti. Paccantimesu janapadesu atthi yattha atthi, atthi yattha natthi brahmacariyavāso milakkhesu aviññātāresu yattha natthi gati bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīnaṁ upāsakānaṁ upāsikānaṁ, majjhimesu janapadesu atthi yattha atthi, atthi yattha natthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Manussesu atthi yattha atthi, atthi yattha natthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Kattha atthi, kattha natthīti? Paccantimesu janapadesu natthi brahmacariyavāso milakkhesu aviññātāresu yattha natthi gati bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīnaṁ upāsakānaṁ upāsikānaṁ, majjhimesu janapadesu atthi brahmacariyavāsoti. Paccantimesu janapadesu natthi brahmacariyavāso milakkhesu aviññātāresu yattha natthi gati bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīnaṁ upāsakānaṁ upāsikānanti? Āmantā. Majjhimesu janapadesu natthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Majjhimesu janapadesu atthi brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Paccantimesu janapadesu atthi brahmacariyavāso milakkhesu aviññātāresu yattha natthi gati bhikkhūnaṁ bhikkhunīnaṁ upāsakānaṁ upāsikānanti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Atthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti? Āmantā. Nanu vuttaṁ bhagavatā— “tīhi, bhikkhave, ṭhānehi jambudīpakā manussā uttarakuruke ca manusse adhigaṇhanti deve ca tāvatiṁse. Katamehi tīhi? Sūrā, satimanto, idha brahmacariyavāso”ti. Attheva suttantoti? Āmantā. Tena hi natthi devesu brahmacariyavāsoti.
Sāvatthiyaṁ vuttaṁ bhagavatā— “idha brahmacariyavāso”ti? Āmantā. Sāvatthiyaṁyeva brahmacariyavāso, natthi aññatra brahmacariyavāsoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Anāgāmissa puggalassa pañcorambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni pahīnāni, pañcuddhambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni appahīnāni, ito cutassa tattha upapannassa kuhiṁ phaluppattīti? Tattheva. Hañci anāgāmissa puggalassa pañcorambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni pahīnāni, pañcuddhambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni appahīnāni, ito cutassa tattha upapannassa tahiṁ phaluppatti; no ca vata re vattabbe— “natthi devesu brahmacariyavāso”ti.
Anāgāmissa puggalassa pañcorambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni pahīnāni, pañcuddhambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni appahīnāni, ito cutassa tattha upapannassa kuhiṁ bhāroharaṇaṁ, kuhiṁ dukkhapariññātaṁ, kuhiṁ kilesappahānaṁ, kuhiṁ nirodhasacchikiriyā, kuhiṁ akuppapaṭivedhoti? Tattheva. Hañci anāgāmissa puggalassa pañcorambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni pahīnāni, pañcuddhambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni appahīnāni, ito cutassa tattha upapannassa tahiṁ akuppapaṭivedho; no ca vata re vattabbe— “natthi devesu brahmacariyavāso”ti.
Anāgāmissa puggalassa pañcorambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni pahīnāni, pañcuddhambhāgiyāni saṁyojanāni appahīnāni, ito cutassa tattha upapannassa tahiṁ phaluppatti, tahiṁ bhāroharaṇaṁ, tahiṁ dukkhapariññātaṁ, tahiṁ kilesappahānaṁ, tahiṁ nirodhasacchikiriyā, tahiṁ akuppapaṭivedho; kenaṭṭhena vadesi— “natthi devesu brahmacariyavāso”ti? Handa hi anāgāmī puggalo idha bhāvitena maggena tattha phalaṁ sacchikarotīti.
Saṁsandanabrahmacariyakathā
Anāgāmī puggalo idha bhāvitena maggena tattha phalaṁ sacchikarotīti? Āmantā. Sotāpanno puggalo tattha bhāvitena maggena idha phalaṁ sacchikarotīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Anāgāmī puggalo idha bhāvitena maggena tattha phalaṁ sacchikarotīti? Āmantā. Sakadāgāmī puggalo idha parinibbāyipuggalo tattha bhāvitena maggena idha phalaṁ sacchikarotīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Sotāpanno puggalo idha bhāvitena maggena idha phalaṁ sacchikarotīti? Āmantā. Anāgāmī puggalo tattha bhāvitena maggena tattha phalaṁ sacchikarotīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Sakadāgāmī puggalo idha parinibbāyipuggalo idha bhāvitena maggena idha phalaṁ sacchikarotīti? Āmantā. Anāgāmī puggalo tattha bhāvitena maggena tattha phalaṁ sacchikarotīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Idha vihāya niṭṭhassa puggalassa maggo ca bhāvīyati, na ca kilesā pahīyantīti? Āmantā. Sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa maggo ca bhāvīyati, na ca kilesā pahīyantīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Idha vihāya niṭṭhassa puggalassa maggo ca bhāvīyati, na ca kilesā pahīyantīti? Āmantā. Sakadāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa …pe… arahattasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa maggo ca bhāvīyati, na ca kilesā pahīyantīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa apubbaṁ acarimaṁ maggo ca bhāvīyati, kilesā ca pahīyantīti? Āmantā. Idha vihāya niṭṭhassa puggalassa apubbaṁ acarimaṁ maggo ca bhāvīyati, kilesā ca pahīyantīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Sakadāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa …pe… arahattasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa puggalassa apubbaṁ acarimaṁ maggo ca bhāvīyati, kilesā ca pahīyantīti? Āmantā. Idha vihāya niṭṭhassa puggalassa apubbaṁ acarimaṁ maggo ca bhāvīyati, kilesā ca pahīyantīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Anāgāmī puggalo katakaraṇīyo bhāvitabhāvano tattha upapajjatīti? Āmantā. Arahā upapajjatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Arahā upapajjatīti? Āmantā. Atthi arahato punabbhavoti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Atthi arahato punabbhavoti? Āmantā. Arahā bhavena bhavaṁ gacchati, gatiyā gatiṁ gacchati, saṁsārena saṁsāraṁ gacchati, upapattiyā upapattiṁ gacchatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Anāgāmī puggalo katakaraṇīyo bhāvitabhāvano anohaṭabhāro tattha upapajjatīti? Āmantā. Bhāroharaṇāya puna maggaṁ bhāvetīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Anāgāmī puggalo katakaraṇīyo bhāvitabhāvano apariññātadukkho appahīnakileso asacchikatanirodho appaṭividdhākuppo tattha upapajjatīti? Āmantā. Akuppapaṭivedhāya puna maggaṁ bhāvetīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Anāgāmī puggalo katakaraṇīyo bhāvitabhāvano anohaṭabhāro tattha upapajjati, na ca bhāroharaṇāya puna maggaṁ bhāvetīti? Āmantā. Anohaṭabhāro ca tattha parinibbāyatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe.
Anāgāmī puggalo katakaraṇīyo bhāvitabhāvano apariññātadukkho appahīnakileso asacchikatanirodho appaṭividdhākuppo tattha upapajjati, na ca akuppapaṭivedhāya puna maggaṁ bhāvetīti? Āmantā. Appaṭividdhākuppo ca tattha parinibbāyatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe. Yathā migo sallena viddho dūrampi gantvā kālaṁ karoti, evamevaṁ anāgāmī puggalo idha bhāvitena maggena tattha phalaṁ sacchikarotīti.
Yathā migo sallena viddho dūrampi gantvā sasallova kālaṁ karoti, evamevaṁ anāgāmī puggalo idha bhāvitena maggena tattha sasallova parinibbāyatīti? Na hevaṁ vattabbe …pe….
Brahmacariyakathā niṭṭhitā.
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In the Vimana vatthu (I give the account from vism. vii51
Maṇḍūka, the deity’s son, and others illustrate this. While the Blessed One was teaching the Dhamma to the inhabitants of the city of Campā on the banks of the Gaggarā Lake, it seems, a frog apprehended a sign in the Blessed One’s voice. A cowherd who was standing leaning on a stick put his stick on the frog’s head and crushed it. He died and was straight away reborn in a gilded, divine palace, twelve leagues broad in the Tāvatiṃsa heaven. He found himself there, as if waking up from sleep, amidst a host of celestial nymphs, and he exclaimed, “So I have actually been reborn here. What deed did I do?” When he sought for the reason, he found it was none other than his apprehension of the sign in the Blessed One’s voice. He went with his divine palace at once to the Blessed One and paid homage at his feet. Though the Blessed One knew about it, he asked him:
“Who now pays homage at my feet,
Shining with glory of success,
Illuminating all around
With beauty so outstanding?”“In my last life I was a frog,
The waters of a pond my home;
A cowherd’s crook ended my life
While listening to your Dhamma” (Vv. 49).The Blessed One taught him the Dhamma. Eighty-four thousand creatures gained penetration to the Dhamma. As soon as the deity’s son became established in the fruition of stream-entry he smiled and then vanished.
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This is simply showing that those who develop the Jhanas outside a Buddhasana (hence without vipassana) only reach the Brahma worlds - that way does not lead to nibbana.
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The one who does not attain as a human but is reborn as a deva - if he has understanding may quickly reach ‘distinction’ .
> ** Numbered Discourses 4.191*
*** 20. The Great Chapter**
Mendicants, you can expect four benefits when the teachings have been followed by ear, reinforced by recitation, examined by the mind, and well comprehended theoretically. What four?Take a mendicant who memorizes the teaching—statements, mixed prose & verse, discussions, verses, inspired exclamations, legends, stories of past lives, amazing stories, and classifications. They’ve followed those teachings by ear, reinforced them by recitation, examined them by the mind, and well comprehended them theoretically. But they die unmindful and are reborn in one of the orders of gods. Being happy there, passages of the teaching come back to them. Memory comes up slowly, but then that being quickly reaches distinction. This is the first benefit you can expect when the teachings have been followed by ear, reinforced by recitation, examined by the mind, and well comprehended theoretically.
Sotānugatasutta Variant: Sotānugatasutta → sotānudhanasuttaṁ (bj)
“Sotānugatānaṁ, bhikkhave, dhammānaṁ, vacasā paricitānaṁ, manasānupekkhitānaṁ, diṭṭhiyā suppaṭividdhānaṁ cattāro ānisaṁsā pāṭikaṅkhā. Variant: Sotānugatānaṁ → sotānudhanānaṁ (bj)Katame cattāro?
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammaṁ pariyāpuṇāti— suttaṁ, geyyaṁ, veyyākaraṇaṁ, gāthaṁ, udānaṁ, itivuttakaṁ, jātakaṁ, abbhutadhammaṁ, vedallaṁ. Tassa te dhammā sotānugatā honti, vacasā paricitā, manasānupekkhitā, diṭṭhiyā suppaṭividdhā. So muṭṭhassati kālaṁ kurumāno aññataraṁ devanikāyaṁ upapajjati. Variant: muṭṭhassati → muṭṭhassatī (bj)Tassa tattha sukhino dhammapadā plavanti. Variant: plavanti → pilapanti (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed)Dandho, bhikkhave, satuppādo; atha so satto khippaṁyeva visesagāmī hoti. Sotānugatānaṁ, bhikkhave, dhammānaṁ, vacasā paricitānaṁ, manasānupekkhitānaṁ, diṭṭhiyā suppaṭividdhānaṁ ayaṁ paṭhamo ānisaṁso pāṭikaṅkho.
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Okay, but “distinction” is undefined in this sutta, it could mean anything. Have you any reason for thinking that “distinction” is nibbana? Any sutta to support that view? The Buddha normally elaborates or is specific if he means final liberation.
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the AnguttaraNikayaatthakatha
I give the full commentary:
(20) 5. Mahāvaggo
1. Sotānugatasuttavaṇṇanā
- Pañcamassa paṭhame sotānugatānanti pasādasotaṃ odahitvā ñāṇasotena vavatthapitānaṃ. Cattāro ānisaṃsā pāṭikaṅkhāti cattāro guṇānisaṃsā pāṭikaṅkhitabbā. Idaṃ pana bhagavatā atthuppattivasena āraddhaṃ. Kataraatthuppattivasenāti? Bhikkhūnaṃ dhammassavanāya anupasaṅkamanaatthuppattivasena. Pañcasatā kira brāhmaṇapabbajitā ‘‘sammāsambuddho liṅgavacanavibhattipadabyañjanādīhi kathento amhehi ñātameva kathessati, aññātaṃ kiṃ kathessatī’’ti dhammassavanatthaṃ na gacchanti. Satthā taṃ pavattiṃ sutvā te pakkosāpetvā ‘‘kasmā evaṃ karotha, sakkaccaṃ dhammaṃ suṇātha, sakkaccaṃ dhammaṃ suṇantānañca sajjhāyantānañca ime ettakā ānisaṃsā’’ti dassento imaṃ desanaṃ ārabhi.
Tattha dhammaṃ pariyāpuṇātīti suttaṃ geyyantiādikaṃ navaṅgaṃ satthusāsanabhūtaṃ tantidhammaṃ vaḷañjeti. Sotānugatā hontīti sotaṃ anuppattā anupaviṭṭhā honti. Manasānupekkhitāti cittena olokitā. Diṭṭhiyā suppaṭividdhāti atthato ca kāraṇato ca paññāya suṭṭhu paṭividdhā paccakkhaṃ katā. Muṭṭhassati kālaṃ kurumānoti nayidaṃ buddhavacanaṃ anussaraṇasatiyā abhāvena vuttaṃ, puthujjanakālakiriyaṃ pana sandhāya vuttaṃ. Puthujjano hi muṭṭhassati kālaṃ karoti nāma. Upapajjatīti suddhasīle patiṭṭhito devaloke nibbattati. Dhammapadā plavantīti antarābhave nibbattamuṭṭhassatino, yepi pubbe sajjhāyamūlikā vācāparicitabuddhavacanadhammā, te sabbe pasanne ādāse chāyā viya plavanti, pākaṭā hutvā paññāyanti. Dandho, bhikkhave, satuppādoti buddhavacanānussaraṇasatiyā uppādo dandho garu. Atha so satto khippaṃyeva visesagāmī hoti, nibbānagāmī hotīti attho.
Iddhimā cetovasippattoti iddhisampanno cittassa vasibhāvapatto khīṇāsavo. Ayaṃvā so dhammavinayoti ettha vibhāvanattho vā-saddo. Yatthāti yasmiṃ dhammavinaye. Brahmacariyaṃ acarinti brahmacariyavāsaṃ vasiṃ. Idampi buddhavacanaṃ mayā pubbe vaḷañjitanti buddhavacanānussaraṇavasenetaṃ vuttaṃ. Devaputtoti pañcālacaṇḍo viya hatthakamahābrahmā viya sanaṅkumārabrahmā viya ca eko dhammakathikadevaputto. Opapātiko opapātikaṃ sāretīti paṭhamaṃ uppanno devaputto pacchā uppannaṃ sāreti. Sahapaṃsukīḷikāti etena nesaṃ dīgharattaṃ kataparicayabhāvaṃ dasseti. Samāgaccheyyunti sālāya vā rukkhamūle vā sammukhībhāvaṃ gaccheyyuṃ. Evaṃ vadeyyāti sālāya vā rukkhamūle vā paṭhamataraṃ nisinno pacchā āgataṃ evaṃ vadeyya. Sesamettha pāḷinayeneva veditabbaṃ.
Here is the relevant phrase: Atha so satto khippaṃyeva visesagāmī hoti, nibbānagāmī hotīti attho.
Thus the Commentary equates visesagāmī (translated by Bodhi as “distinction”) with attaining nibbana
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It is of interest that the Commentary equates ‘distinction’ with attaining nibbana. However, that is opinion, not supported either way in the suttas. Other suttas would indicate that ‘distinction’ is just distinction, a term along with its cognates often used by the Buddha as approval, but without going on to say more.
The reason I don’t consider my essay as commentary, as you suggested, is that it does not offer opinion of my own. I take as a starting point the opinion of many scholars and translators that the Jataka was written after the death of the Buddha and not based on his discourses, so therefore interpolation. I then ask: what picture of the Buddha’s rounds of birth do we gain from the 9 + 6 + 6 cases in the suttas? One could imagine an attentive bikkhu with an interest in reincarnation (as I have) raising this with fellow-bikkhus in dharma talk. After such courteous and amiable talk they would agree of course to go to the Blessed One to ask if their conclusions were meaningful, but we cannot do that now. Hence I value any response to my essay here.
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I am not sure I am following. Are you suggesting that the Buddha only needed “9 + 6 + 6”
lives to develop enough to attain Buddhahood? Or how many?
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My point about the 9 + 6 + 6 is that is how many lives we find when we work through the four major Nikayas. (If I have missed any I would be pleased to know.) What they show is the repeated attainment of the four brahma viharas leading to rebirth in the brahma world, and the inadequacy of that. What this suggests is that as Gautama he came to understand the inadequacy of the brahma viharas and also of the jhanas leading all the way to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. He also went down the dead-end of extreme austerities. How exactly he went from there to final liberation is not that clear, but one clue lies in his conversations with devas, after which the ‘knowledge and vision of mine would become even more purified’ (AN 8.64).
From all of this I would suggest that the question “how many lives to develop enough to attain Buddhahood?” is unanswerable from the Suttas.
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You are referring to the other thread:
You write that:
Mike King: I am keen to meet the Buddha’s mind first and only after the supreme effort to do that then consider his interpreters of the last 2,500 years. For example you have kindly suggested reading ‘The Perfections’ by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, as an introduction to the Cariyapitaka. This means reading a commentary on a commentary on the Buddha’s teachings which means approaching the Buddha’s mind through the minds of at least two other individuals. The question then arises: are these minds equal to that of the Buddha, or greater, or lesser? I think that even to ask the question is to have answered it.
Robert: and yet you write an essay yourself on Dhamma. Perhaps you see no disconnect, or do you assume your readers don’t want to “meet the Buddha’s mind”?
Just to note, Commentary has a special meaning in Theravada.
The prime object of every Commentary is to make the meanings of the words and
phrases in the canonical passages it is elucidating abundantly clear, definite, definitive even…This is to preserve the Teachings of the Buddha as nearly as possible in the sense intended, and as conveyed by the succession of teachers, acariyaparama. Always there were detractors, always there were and still are “improvers” ready with their own notions. Through friends and enemies alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The Commentaries are the armour and protection against such an eventuality. AS they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as closed now as is the Pali canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included in it.
-Horner. pxiii Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning" PAli Text Society 1978.
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That is pure opinion of those “scholars”. Why would anyone take their speculations over the ancients, the Sangha, the great arahat Bhikkhus who preserved the Tipitaka and Commentaries.
It would be good to read this
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