Is Criticizing Abhidhamma, Or Realness of Suttas Against Vinaya?

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The EBT’rs often deny anything outside the four Nikāyas as real (and not everything from that, either). If that blanket rule is followed, then they are even refuting the dhammapada!
In any case, they are criticizing the Dhamma.

pācittiyapāḷi p.189

439. ‘‘yo pana bhikkhu pātimokkhe uddissamāne evaṃ vadeyya – ‘kiṃ panimehi khuddānukhuddakehi sikkhāpadehi uddiṭṭhehi, yāvadeva kukkuccāya vihesāya vilekhāya saṃvattantī’ti, sikkhāpadavivaṇṇake pācittiya’’nti.
439. “If a bhikkhu, while the Pātimokkha is being recited, should say, ‘What good are these minor and lesser training rules when recited? They lead only to remorse, to annoyance, to mental vexation,’ he incurs a pācittiya for disparaging a training rule.”

440. yo panāti yo yādiso…pe… bhikkhūti…pe… ayaṃ imasmiṃ atthe adhippeto bhikkhūti.
440. “Whatever bhikkhu…” means whoever, of whatever kind… (and so on) … “bhikkhu” means… (and so on) … in this context, the bhikkhu referred to is this one.

pātimokkhe uddissamāneti uddisante vā uddisāpente vā sajjhāyaṃ vā karonte.
“While the Pātimokkha is being recited” means while one is reciting, or having it recited, or doing a recitation.

189evaṃ vadeyyāti – ‘‘kiṃ panimehi khuddānukhuddakehi sikkhāpadehi uddiṭṭhehi, yāvadeva kukkuccāya vihesāya vilekhāya saṃvattantīti.
“Should say thus” means, “What good are these minor and lesser training rules when recited? They lead only to remorse, to annoyance, to mental vexation.”

‘‘ye imaṃ pariyāpuṇanti tesaṃ kukkuccaṃ hoti, vihesā hoti, vilekhā hoti, ye imaṃ na pariyāpuṇanti tesaṃ kukkuccaṃ na hoti vihesā na hoti vilekhā na hoti.
“For those who learn this, there is remorse, there is annoyance, there is mental vexation; for those who do not learn this, there is no remorse, no annoyance, no mental vexation.

anuddiṭṭhaṃ idaṃ varaṃ, anuggahitaṃ idaṃ varaṃ, apariyāpuṭaṃ idaṃ varaṃ, adhāritaṃ idaṃ varaṃ, vinayo vā antaradhāyatu, ime vā bhikkhū apakataññuno hontū’’ti upasampannassa vinayaṃ vivaṇṇeti, āpatti pācittiyassa.
It would be better if this were not recited, better if it were not preserved, better if it were not learned, better if it were not memorized, or let the Vinaya disappear, or let these bhikkhus become unskilled.” If he disparages the Vinaya to a fully ordained bhikkhu, he incurs a pācittiya.

441. upasampanne upasampannasaññī vinayaṃ vivaṇṇeti, āpatti pācittiyassa.
If, regarding one who is fully ordained, he perceives him as fully ordained and disparages the Vinaya, he incurs a pācittiya.

upasampanne vematiko vinayaṃ vivaṇṇeti, āpatti pācittiyassa.
If, regarding one who is fully ordained, he is in doubt and disparages the Vinaya, he incurs a pācittiya.

upasampanne anupasampannasaññī vinayaṃ vivaṇṇeti, āpatti pācittiyassa.
If, regarding one who is fully ordained, he perceives him as not fully ordained and disparages the Vinaya, he incurs a pācittiya.

aññaṃ dhammaṃ vivaṇṇeti, āpatti dukkaṭassa.
If he disparages another Dhamma, he incurs a dukkaṭa.

anupasampannassa vinayaṃ vā aññaṃ vā dhammaṃ vivaṇṇeti, āpatti dukkaṭassa.
If he disparages the Vinaya or another Dhamma to one who is not fully ordained, he incurs a dukkaṭa.

anupasampanne upasampannasaññī, āpatti dukkaṭassa.
If, regarding one who is not fully ordained, he perceives him as fully ordained, he incurs a dukkaṭa.

anupasampanne vematiko, āpatti dukkaṭassa.
If, regarding one who is not fully ordained, he is in doubt, he incurs a dukkaṭa.

anupasampanne anupasampannasaññī, āpatti dukkaṭassa.
If, regarding one who is not fully ordained, he perceives him as not fully ordained, he incurs a dukkaṭa.

vinayavinicchayaṭīkā ¶ p.553

1721. tikapācittiyaṃ vuttanti ‘‘upasampanne upasampannasaññī vinayaṃ vivaṇṇeti, āpatti pācittiyassa.
1721. “Tikapācittiyaṃ vuttaṃ” means three pācittiya offenses are stated: “If an ordained person, perceiving an ordained person, disparages the Vinaya, there is an offense of pācittiya.
upasampanne vematiko…pe… anupasampannasaññī…pe… pācittiyassā’’ti (pāci. 441) tīṇi pācittiyāni vuttāni.
If an ordained person, being in doubt… and if an ordained person, perceiving an unordained person… there is an offense of pācittiya” (Pāci. 441).
taṃ vinayaṃ sace pana anupasampannassa santike vivaṇṇeti, tikadukkaṭanti yojanā.
The interpretation is that if one disparages “that” Vinaya in the presence of an unordained person, there is a tikadukkaṭa offense.
1722-4. ubhinnampīti upasampannānaṃ, anupasampannānaṃ ubhinnampi, ‘‘santike’’ti seso.
1722-4. “Ubhinnampi” means “of both” ordained and unordained persons, with “in the presence of” understood.
aññadhammavivaṇṇaneti vinayato aññesaṃ suttābhidhammānaṃ vivaṇṇane.
“Aññadhammavivaṇṇane” means disparaging other teachings, such as the Sutta and Abhidhamma, apart from the Vinaya.

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The majority of them will be Athiests within 10 years. :folded_hands:

R

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And imagine doing that and not even realising it is wrong.

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Most monks disrobe, so your statement is correct.
However, there are now some very senior monks who have survived and continue to spread this. It has grown, and not declined. I think there is an attraction to this due to the human nature of shock value, disagreement and negativity. This is what the “algorithm” of what tends to go viral seeks. It is beyond social media. It applies to any media that has these negative qualities that will become popular. The algorithm just applies this over and over again. That is why it is called an algorithm.

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Indeed, Bhante.

R

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So it doesn’t include house rules? Like monastery rules?

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There are lots of vinaya rules that can come into play that monastery rules are derived from.

  • Complaining about an appointed official.
  • Knowingly bringing up a settled issue.
  • Disrespect

Furthermore, many rules are often derived from vinaya rules, but you might not know them yet. Many monasteries might ignore certain rules, while one monastery you may visit or live in follows a particular rule.

For instance, water or body hairs on finished surfaces may seem like a cultural thing but it is in the rules. The same can be said about covering feet of chairs with cloth.

Or recently the issue of tea and coffee was brought up.
You might find that your whole life you are allowed to eat cheese and then find a monastery that does not allow it (because it is indeed food). This is not a monastery rule. It is vinaya.

In the end, you might indeed find a monastery rule that does not have to do with vinaya. We have to dry our glasses in a certain way. Just do it. It is called living in harmony. You might have a rule about chanting or a schedule to follow. This is very important.

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That is only an offence at the time of reciting the patimokkha. Context is everything. EBTs are not against vinaya just the distortion of bias to the nature of the abhidhamma blind belief without concrete evidence. These are quite different circumstances and quite a human reaction. For which you show a great degree of intolerance and lack of understanding.

The Dhammapada is a great piece of Dhamma and does it mention abhidhamma???

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I think you missed the title. Is EBT against Vinaya? Meaning: Is criticizing the Dhamma, commentaries, or Abhidhamma against Vinaya?

Please see the FAQ about intolerance.

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So you are asking is EBT an offence under vinaya? No it is not.

I think EBT people would accept the vinaya is part of EBT.

I think they would accept the Dhammapada contains Dhamma.

I think you are misreading the vinaya rule out of context.

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I think they do not accept the commentaries, and they criticize the commentaries too. The same applies to the Abhidhamma.

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They accept that the commentaries are commentaries don’t they? Why does it matter whether they think it is some infallible word of God type system or not? Opinions are anicca, dukkha and anatta. The commentaries never claimed to be infallible.

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There are many flavors. Have you ever heard of Ajahn Kukrit? There is a Buddhavacana movement. He was kicked out of the Ajahn Chah monastery system because he did 150 rules Pāṭimokkha. He is an extremist. I changed the title of this thread.