How to know if we haven't got rid of Sakkaya Ditthi?

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I think almost all informed Buddhists know the teachings of the Buddha in term of Anicca, Dukkha and Anatta. Buddhists of east and west keep discussing about the five aggregates are not self/nonself, often as if an academic topic.

It seems we have good theoretical knowledge on this nonself topic, but how can we be assured that we abandoned Sakkaya Ditthi or the belief of having Self? Or not yet abandoned?

What will be the indicator of that understanding?

*I, we, me, they, you are just words for conventional conversation purpose.

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A post was merged into an existing topic: Clinging-aggregates and bare aggregates?

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Do you think that the
Five Aggregates.pdf (57.2 KB) is as in the PDF file or the Five Aggregates are all mentals?

Will let you know once you reply…

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Dear Ontheway
One way of considering this is the three levels of understanding sacca ñāna, kicca ñāna. kata ñāna.
Even the first round which correlates with pariyatti and is not yet satipatthana is wisdom of a special type- the type that understands clearly the Buddha’s teaching.

I think it is not easy, without the right accumulations from the past, to understand this intellectually - think of all the misrepresentations and confusions that abound now. And this is at a time when the Tipitaka is still complete and the Commentaries are also well preserved thanks to the ancient Sangha.

We can check our understanding right now: do we think “I” who see or is it clear (at least intellectually) that there is merely a conditioned element that sees.
Do we accept that every nama and rupa is gone instantly. That the moment of rupa and nama from a second ago have vanished, never to reappear.

If understanding is still weak one could decide tomorrow that they are a sotapanna.
But if real wisdom is growing the nature of reality is little by little being discerned and so the depth of ignorance, avijja and tanha is grasped. One will see that it is no little task to eliminate these.

Fortunately it is not impossible and the way is still open. It is wrong view that is the real danger and this is attentuated gradually as understanding grows.

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Hi thanks for the illustration.

In my understanding, Nama is the mental aspect and the Rupa is the materialistic aspect.

You can share your understanding too.

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Thank you for the comment, Robertk. It’s insightful.

I can no longer view a being as a permanent entity. I don’t even view a being as if a real “being”, but treat it as in a conventional sense.

In my current understanding, a being is only the gathering of five aggregates that arise and cease due to conditionality as described in Paticca-samuppada and such existence inflicted by Kamma and Vipaka. I also accept that the aggregates come and go at momentarily stage and the past is gone, the future is yet to come.

I arrived at a conclusion that is not into two extremes. I don’t go into one extreme to state that a being is real and ultimate that will either survive or perish after death. I also don’t go into another extreme to state that a being is nothing but a mere combination of things that bear no consequence in our deeds, void of moral values. These two extremes abandoned by me.

I wonder if there is a meditation method that can hasten the abandonment of Sakkaya Ditthi?

Buddhanussati, Metta Bhavana and Devatanussati are not that helpful, imho.

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You understanding of Five Aggregates is incorrect. Read this Khandha Sutta SN 22.48 (this is the link to the sutta [but I am not allow to post link, so replace “-” (5- in nos) with “/” for the link to work] https:–suttacentral.net-sn22.48-en-sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=main&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin) and check whether can the rūpa be of materialistic aspect.

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Great sutta reference, thanks Tan.

But Rupa is not mental aspect.

If it is so, Rupa will be under Nama group. But it is not so.

The sutta stated:

Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of form.

This is understandable. The physical body of “Ontheway” five minutes ago, is no longer the same physical body of current. The posture, chemical compositions, the conditions of the body is changed. This is how past, present and future come about.

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Its very deep. One who meditates and contemplates impermanence will understand impermanence to a very deep degree. to the point where they simply dont attach to things at all. Its the same with non-self. when you truly get rid of false identity view you will detach from your perception of self on a very deep level. This is something that can only be experienced thru practice, not academic study or intellectual conjecture.

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Yes, I agreed with you, Trobinson. The book learning can only get us sutamaya pañña.

I’m exploring meditation method too. Used to do Buddhanussati, but maybe I should try other method.

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It is interesting to know that, in ten samyojanas, Sotapanna abandoned three defilements which includes Sakkaya Ditthi but not Mana (conceit).

To quote from the website:

Conceit as a fetter refers to the very subtle conceit (asmi mana) in which one carries the feeling of “I am”. This subtle ego conceit of “I am”, which is eliminated only when one attains the final Noble stage of Arahantship is different to the self identity view (sakkaya ditthi) in which one identifies with one or more of the five aggregates of clinging (pancha-upadanaskhanda) as “I” or “Me” (6).

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This is precisely why you have got the rūpa khandha wrong. The physical body of “Ontheway” has to be seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched, or recalled through the six “senses” with the rūpa rūpa or vaṇṇa rūpa for sight which will go from present into the past. These rūpa rūpa or vaṇṇa rūpa for sight are mental impression processed by the hadaya vatthu through the various pasāda rūpa or the five senses to become what is called “Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of form.”

How do you know that an “apple” is what you have seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched, or known?
First you must have seen an “apple” previously (past form seen),
then you have heard of the word “apple” previously (past form heard),
then you have smelt of the “apple” previously (past form smelt),
then you have tasted of the “apple” previously (past form tasted),
then you have touched of the “apple” previously (past form touched),
or you have known of the “apple” previously (past form known).

Do you think that the above are all meterialistic aspect of form or mental impression?

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Dear Ontheway
and this expression of confidence in the teaching that you expressed is the foundation for further insight.
Right at this very moment there is seeing and color, there is hearing and sound, touch and hardness. There is thinking, there is feeling. And all these elements are experienced either with understanding or without it.

For the method:

“Bhikkhus, I shall teach you a discourse on the great sixfold base. Listen and attend closely to what I shall say.”—“Yes, venerable sir,” the bhikkhus replied. The Blessed One said this:

“Bhikkhus, when one does not know and see the eye as it actually is, when one does not know and see forms as they actually are, when one does not know and see eye-consciousness as it actually is, when one does not know and see eye-contact as it actually is, when one does not know and see as it actually is the feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact as condition, then one is inflamed by lust for the eye, for forms, for eye-consciousness, for eye-contact, for the feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact as condition.

then the Buddha explained:

Bhikkhus, when one knows and sees the eye as it actually is, when one knows and sees forms as they actually are, when one knows and sees eye-consciousness as it actually is, when one knows and sees eye-contact as it actually is, when one knows and sees as it actually is the feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact as condition, then one is not inflamed by lust for the eye, for forms, for eye-consciousness, for eye-contact, for the feeling felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact as condition

So is seeing or thinking, for example, understood directly as it arises now or is it still unclear? If it is not clear then that is the way it must be, that is the nature of avijja, to obscure.

The Buddha further said:

“The view of a person such as this is right view. His intention is right intention, his effort is right effort, his mindfulness is right mindfulness, his concentration is right concentration. But his bodily action, his verbal action, and his livelihood have already been well purified earlier. Thus this Noble Eightfold Path comes to fulfilment in him by development. When he develops this Noble Eightfold Path, the four foundations of mindfulness also come to fulfilment in him by development; the four right kinds of striving also come to fulfilment in him by development; the four bases for spiritual power also come to fulfilment in him by development; the five faculties also come to fulfilment in him by development; the five powers also come to fulfilment in him by development; the seven enlightenment factors also come to fulfilment in him by development. These two things—serenity and insight—occur in him yoked evenly together. He fully understands by direct knowledge those things that should be fully understood by direct knowledge. He abandons by direct knowledge those things that should be abandoned by direct knowledge. He develops by direct knowledge those things that should be developed by direct knowledge. He realises by direct knowledge those things that should be realised by direct knowledge.

“And what things should be fully understood by direct knowledge? The answer to that is: the five aggregates affected by clinging, that is, the material form aggregate affected by clinging, the feeling aggregate affected by clinging, the perception aggregate affected by clinging, the formations aggregate affected by clinging, the consciousness aggregate affected by clinging. These are the things that should be fully understood by direct knowledge.

Sometimes Buddhists think that because seeing/ color, hearing/sound or thinking or feeling are all happening now in normal daily life that understanding those can’t be the right way. They think there must be some special exerience or deep concentration and then they can open their eyes and it all makes sense. And in that way they turn away from the present moment and miss the opportunities that are always arising.

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Strange enough. That is not how I learned from the scriptures.

Rupa is described as four main elements and derived materiality in Theravada.

How can that be mental aspect?

To quote from “Abhidhamma in Daily Life” by Ashin Janakabhivamsa:

  1. Pathavi Dhatu
    The earth element is also called element of solidity. The earth as a foundation supports all other things. Due to its hardness, firmness and strength it is called pathavi. The earth, rocks, stones, masses of metals are all matter in which the pathavi dhatu is dominant.

  2. Apo Dhatu
    Just as water enhances the cohesion of dust or powdered materials so also apo dhatu, the element of cohesion, makes aggregates of tiny particles. When apo dhatu is dominant, it can dissolve other elements and become fluid. Water, urine, mucus, sweat, saliva, tears, etc. are material dominated by apo dhatu.

  3. Tejo Dhatu
    Just as heat of the sun can dry wet things, so also the tejo element prevents excessive dampness and viscosity of aggregate matter and maintains optimum dryness. The body of a healthy person is usually cool in the summer. This coolness also tejo dhatu.

There are thus two types of tejo and sita tejo. Utu (climate) is another name for rejo. When the body and environs are cool, sita tejo pervades the entire atmosphere. When hot, unha tejo does the same. If this tejo dhatu is hot when it should be hot and cool when it is the time for cool season, we have healthy climate. In our bodies if tejo is moderate we are healthy; if not we are sick; if in excess we die.

Therefore those who cannot adapt to the changing tejo should live with care. They should avoid traveling in intense heat or extreme cold; they should avoid eating very hot or very cold food. Water and ice are aggregate matter with excess of site tejo where as the sun fire of unha tejo.

Pacaka tejo dhatu: this type of tejo serves to digest our food. It originates from beneath the stomach. Powerful pacaka tejo helps digest the food eaten, but if it is feeble you cannot digest properly and get stomach disorder. In order to be healthy you need to eat tender digestible food.

  1. Vayo Dhatu
    Vayo dhatu is the element of motion. It is seen in the wind blowing about and pushing against things. This dhatu pushes or moves other aggregate matter.

In our body there are six types of wind: -

Uddhangama: Wind that moves upward, causing bleaching, coughing, sneezing and related illness. When we speak this wind moves constantly upwards and cause bowel discomfort. One should not speak with an empty stomach.
Adhogama: Wind that moves downward causing bowel movement and frequent motion.
Kucchittha: Wind that moves about in the visceral cavity apart from the large and small intestines.
Kotthasaya: Wind that moves about inside the large and small intestines, pushing digestible food from the stomach into the rectum.
Anggamanganusari: Wind that moves within the limbs. If this wind does not move freely illness results. In our bodies there are small veins along which this wind moves. Staying in one posture for a long time prevents this wind from moving freely causing blood to accumulate at one location without flowing freely leading to stiffness and pain. To prevent this ailment, we should avoid remaining in one posture for a long time; and take walking exercise.
Assasapassasa: Wind inhaled and exhaled by us. It is also known as anapana.
Basic And Secondary Matter
The four fundamental elements pathavi, tejo, vayo and apo are basic matter while other associated matter are secondary. The four fundamental elements serve as foundation for the secondary matter. If the aggregate of the four dhatus are immense, we have big inorganic masses such s high mountains, big fires and immense living organisms such as big Devas, big fishes. The larger the aggregate of the four fundamental dhatus, the bigger the size of the living or non-living thing.

Other pasada rupa are secondary matter. They do not grow in size. Sense-objects such as sight, sound, smell, appearances are included in the class of secondary matter. For example if you add mare scent to a cake of soap, it does not reduced the scent in the cake of soap, the aroma diminishes but the size remains the same. So we must remember that only the four fundamental dhatu are basic matter.

I just don’t see how Rupa can be understood as mere mental quality…

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Admin warning: please do not post non orthodox postings on this site. Unless you have a genuine question.

I will delete some of these posts later.

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Advanced teaching indeed. No easy task for layman like me, who still working in corporate world and busy in daily tasks.

I will practice accordingly. This I believe is a paradigm shift moment, to see how the processes of seeing an object and apply Buddha’s teachings in it.

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I think Tan is genuinely interested in sharing his/her view on this. I think it is alright.

We can have conversation here, why not?

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Rūpa by itself can be material quality but when refering to five aggregates or is called rūpakkhandha, it is definitely mental quality.

If you do not understand rūpakkhandha as mental quality, this will affect the understanding of sakkāya diṭṭhi for pañcupādānakkhandha as it also relate to the rūpupādānakkhandha which is also a mental quality.

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Thanks for the sharing.

Okay, so now we have a common understanding that Rupa is form, a materiality quality.

Khandha means aggregate. So, grammatically Rupakkhandha is Form aggregate, an aggregate of material quality.

I don’t see how it related to mental quality.

In Visuddhimagga, it was stated that:

"Herein, all kinds of states whatsoever that have the characteristic of “being molested” (ruppana) by cold, etc., taken all together should be understood as the materiality (rúpa) aggregate.

  1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of “being molested.”
  2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhúta) and (b) derived [by clinging] (upádáya).

Herein (a) primary materiality is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (XI.87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444]

(b) Derived materiality is of twenty-four kinds as eye, ear, nose, tongue, body , visible datum, sound, odour, flavour; femininity faculty , masculinity faculty , life faculty , heart-basis; bodily intimation, verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment."

If I understand your posts above, you rendered what was seen, heard, smelt etc. as mental aspects. But according to scripture, these things are under Rupa too.

I learned that in Abhidhamma, the four ultimate realities are Citta, Cetasika, Rupa, and Nibbāna. So, mental aspect must be referring to Citta (viññāṇa) and Cetasika (vedana, sañña and sankhara).

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Attached is an article that describes the difference between physical rūpa and rūpakkhandha. If you still don’t understand that rūpakkhandha is mental impression from the six sensory input, you will have no hope in understanding sakkāya diṭṭhi.

Difference Between Physical Rūpa and Rūpakkhandha.pdf (296.0 KB)