Sorry if this breaks some rule about talking about attainments.
I’ve heard of people ‘getting’ jhana in a matter of months. (I’m not sure if that means touching on the state of having on-demand mastery.)
If a meditator practices an hour or two a day, how long does it usually take them to get 1st jhana reliably, for example? And then how long to move up through the other ones?
What has been your experience of working with people on the path?
The Visuddhimagga mentions if a person practices an unsuitable meditation object, the progress may be slow and difficult. Nowadays mindfulness of breathing is the most taught method but many people may be of greed temperament. If they enjoy sensual pleasures a lot and are easily attached to people they meet and just want an easy life in the deva or Brahma world in the next life, they are probably of greed temperament. Also, if a person is young like in their 20s, they may have a lot of lust. Asubha is a great meditation method that is suitable for those with greed temperament and should be taught more in my opinion.
I’d recommend reading the Visuddhimagga from beginning to end. It has a lot of interesting details.
Here is a pdf that shows Asubha pictures.
The time it takes to attain and master jhana can vary. It’s not always about how talented someone is. It depends on what meditation object you practice, your temperament, environment, and defilements.
If I remember correctly, Earth Kasina is suitable for all temperaments. It’s also the first meditation object that the Visuddhimagga teaches. I think it should be the main meditation object taught in monasteries.
It is no easy matter to attain jhana, but a prime cause is sufficient accumulations from past lives. For someone who has such wonderful prior causes then they would incline to that and succeed, but still…
In the case that a meditator has attained deep levels of samādhi in previous lifetimes, then even a little practice in this lifetime could potentially condition very deep samādhi again, even to the level of jhāna, quite fast. The Suttas and Commentaries have many lovely examples of this. That said, if there is no prior conditioning from previous lives, then practicing one or two hours a day—even for decades—might lead to deep samādhi, or it might not lead to that result at all. Why is this the case? Because cetasikas like vīriya, sati, and ekaggatā, etc., need to be so highly developed that they successfully suppress the hindrances completely. This isn’t really about how many hours we sit on the cushion in one lifetime. It’s more of a matter of accumulated pāramī over many, many lifetimes, including this one. That’s the key point.
So the honest answer is: no one can say. It could be this week if the conditions are ripe from previous practice. Or it might never happen in this lifetime, even with daily practice (how many meidtators with jhāna do you know?). To attain jhāna you have to have flawless sīla , very continuous sati (including off the cushion), etc. Mahā-kusala citta with paññā must actually be developed, which is no small task. For example, a bhikkhu who uses money is incapable of attaining jhāna —to some people, this may not seem like it could be a hindrance, but it shows that the monk has a life of kāma-chanda.
One or two hours of formal practice is fine, but what about the other twenty-two hours? If the hindrances are allowed to run freely most of the day, those two hours will not be a foundation for the correct level of samādhi needed to attain appanā. In the Visuddhimagga, Buddhaghosa points out just how rare attaining these extremely exalted states is:
“It is not possible for a meditator to begin to accomplish transformation by
supernormal powers unless he has previously completed his development by
controlling his mind in these fourteen ways. Now, the kasióa preliminary work
is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The
arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and
only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has
arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a
thousand can do it. To tame one’s mind in the fourteen ways after reaching
absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The
transformation by supernormal power after training one’s mind in the fourteen
ways is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. Rapid
response after attaining transformation is difficult and only one in a hundred or
a thousand can do it.”— Vism. XII.8
So rather than focusing on “how long,” it is more useful to ask: does the citta now, in this moment, have alobha , adosa , and amoha ? Is there genuine saṃvega (spiritual urgency) or just a mild interest? The answer to those questions will tell you much more about the possibility of jhāna in this life than how many hours you can meditate. Just continue developing kusala in daily life, without any expectation. That itself is the path. I hope this helps.
This shouldn’t be discouraging. We have many opportunities to develop on the path. Every single moment one is presented to us.
R
On a practical level. At pa-auk.. usually if they practice in a controlled environment for 6 months.. they usually get it or don’t. Not always the hard set case.. but that is often the case.
Usually within a few months.. things start cooking or they don’t.
However, the person who had jhāna for 24 hours (later undocumented as 48), was well in the Thera range before things happened. But not at pa-auk for those many years.. I’m not sure.. but probably the same times once he arrived.
You will see it took 5 months, but he was not following the schedule. After he followed the schedule things started cooking quickly.
Bhante, then in the Pa-Auk system, if someone has practiced for about a year and made no progress at all, what do they do there? Do they change the meditation method?
The teachers often do not change the method “Unless the student asks”. The problem is they get stuck doing anapana thinking the teacher will change them, when it is an unwritten policy to not do so, “Unless they ask”.
What do they do?
They build parami, or they just hang out.
Just because someone lives at pa-auk for years and years does not mean they followed the schedule. It is a big place. You can be invisible if you want. Or you can go to interviews and let the teacher know you.
I’d like to think they follow most of the schedule, but that is hopeful thinking.
What to do?
Switch objects if zero progress after 3 months.
Nimmita no jhana? Switch objects after 6 months of that condition.
There is nothing wrong with doing 4 Elements. It should be tried before leaving.
After all of that?
Best to take a break, go to a new place.. start fresh…somewhere else in the pa-auk related realm. It could be food, or climate or teacher.
Bhante Nyanasiri is quite aggressive to change objects. He lives in a small place in Sri Lanka.
There was one monk who tried for 10 years and then was successful. I don’t think he was there continuously for 10 years. He was just 10 vassa.
Thank you for all this information, Venerable Sir. I see that following the schedule and practicing diligently is important. Even in school, if someone pays attention, does his homework and studies diligently, they usually do well. I think if someone follows the schedule in Pa Auk, keeps the rules, practice diligently and do his duties, he can also succeed in meditation.
“Attā hi attano nātho,
ko hi nātho paro siyā;
Attanā hi sudantena,
nāthaṁ labhati dullabhaṁ.”One truly is one’s own protector and refuge; for who else could be a refuge? By oneself—well-trained and well-disciplined—one gains a refuge that is hard to obtain.