With Thailand set to legalise gay marriage, with what looks like overwhelming support from the Thai population as a whole, I was wondering how CTs feel on the subject. I assume that since marriage is essentially a secular affair in the Dhamma, its legalisation isn’t against CT principles. That’s my understanding anyway. Would that be correct?
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I haven’t read anything in the texts on gay marriage. I think the same principles of support and metta that are encouraged in relationships would apply to this.
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I mention it briefly in my longer article on 3rd precept.
Basically, in today’s age on a one life system, it is perfectly fine… on a one life system.
However, with a multi-life system which is part of CT, we could logically conclude that a habitual gay kamma and effects will sure to result in “being gay” in future lives.
What holds on for the future? Well, we don’t know. As long as the communication system and openness is going strong, it might not be so bad. According to the law of impermanence, we can assume that world war 4 will be fought with sticks and stones. When that happens, it will not be so pleasant to be gay in a gay hating world. Furthermore, the chances for success in sangha are limited because one will be born gay. There will be issues of “separation of sangha based on gender” where “gay” does not align so well. This is explained below in more detail.
While I cannot claim to represent “Theravada” as a whole since I’m not an elected official. I can express my understanding of the dhamma with logic based on core CT beliefs. Cause and Effect and Habitual Kamma. You have read and argued against these points in both articles before in both articles. I think there is no need to do so again.
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Not acceptable.
“micchādhamma” - AN3.2.1.6
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Nothing in CT that says anything there’s wrong with gay marriage. Also nothing saying its the “right thing to do” to have such legalization, contrary to what socially engaged Buddhists think. Its just an irrelevant political matter. Pretty much as related to CT as the debate over how many tanks should a standing army have. Or what is the best political system for a country.
How does this citation work? Usually only one dot there, AN (number of book, 1-11) . (sutta number in the book)
Why is there 2 more dots there?
Also, just one word is insufficient to say gay marriage is wrong dhamma.
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AN-> Aṅguttaranikāya
3-> Tikanipātapāḷi
2-> Dutiyapaṇṇāsakaṃ
1-> Brāhmaṇavaggo
6-> Palokasuttaṃ
Thanks, learned something new.
Digital Pali reader seems the easiest way to find the sutta using this citation system.
I read the original, then asked chatgpt to translate the commentary and subcommentary as below. Nothing mentioned about gay. I think at most one can say wrong sex is about adultery here. Read greed below as lust.
Commentary:
In the sixth case, referring to both teachers and their teachers. It seems as though it was filled to the brim with beings, similar to how the great hell Avīci is packed tightly with beings. Just as roosters leap from the roof of one village to the roof of another, the term “rooster leap” applies here. Another reading suggests “rooster crossing,” meaning the roosters walk from one village to another. Both interpretations imply a densely populated area. The phrase “driven by unrighteous desire” indicates that desire itself is inherently unrighteous, but when it arises concerning one’s own belongings, it is not considered unrighteous; however, when it arises concerning others’ belongings, it is unrighteous. “Overcome by unjust greed” suggests that there is no rightful time for greed; it is always unjust. When greed arises over one’s possessions, it is considered rightful greed, but when it arises over others’ possessions, it is unjust. “Covered by wrong conduct” refers to being associated with wrongful practices. The statement “The god does not rightly send down the rain” implies that it does not rain at the proper time. “Poor harvest” means that food is scarce. “Bad crops” suggests that the crops do not grow well due to various reasons. “Affected by white ants” means that pests damage the crops, turning the heads of the rice white and rendering them useless. “Meager yield” implies that only a small portion of the sown seeds yield any harvest. “Demons” refers to the leaders of demons. “Releasing wild spirits upon humans” implies that they unleash fierce demons into human settlements, causing widespread death and destruction.
Subcommentary:
In the sixth case, “ācariyapācariyā” refers to both teachers and the teachers of teachers. It implies that even the teachers’ teachers are included. The continuous filling with hellish beings, like in the great hell of Avīci, is due to the abundance of those who commit actions leading to hell.
The term “Ubhayampetanti” indicates the two meanings previously mentioned. “Ghananivāsataṃ” refers to the dense habitation of the villages. The phrase “ekanteneva adhammoti” suggests that desire is inherently unrighteous due to its association with improper mental focus and its inherently harmful nature. The expression “na adhammarāgoti adhippetoti” implies that desire towards others’ belongings is not as gravely offensive as it is said, while desire for one’s own possessions does not necessarily lead to evil outcomes.
The verse further explains that desire directed at others’ possessions is gravely offensive due to its potential to cause rebirth in lower realms. There is no proper time for greed; it arises from improper mental focus, like physical misconduct. The statement “samalobho visamalakkhaṇābhāvato” clarifies that when greed arises towards one’s own possessions, it is not considered as severely wrong as when it arises towards others’ possessions. The passage concludes by stating that certain actions driven by greed are not labeled as wrongful conduct unless they are directed at improper objects.
Regarding the various types of crops, “vividhasassānanti” refers to different kinds of crops like rice and barley. The term “dussassanti” describes crops that are spoiled due to adverse conditions. “Sampajjamāneti” indicates the time before the crops mature, during their development stage. “Pāṇakāti” refers to small creatures like locusts that fall on the crops, and “salākāmattameva sampajjatīti” describes crops that grow but fail to develop properly. “Teti vāḷāmanussā” implies fierce beings or spirits that are unleashed, and “laddhokāsāti yakkhādhipatīhi anuññātattā” refers to those who have received permission from the leaders of the spirits to cause harm to humans.
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Thanks. The commentary here doesn’t equate it with homosexuality. The commentary and sub-commentary to DN 26 however does. Of course we have to consider just what they had in mind by “homosexuality” back then, which is a very modern term.
Can you show me where? I used Norbu https://norbu-ai.org/ to translate the part where people live for 10 years and have moral degenerative era, it says about incest (implied).
Commentary to DN26. Dīgha Nikāya,pāthikavaggaṭṭhakathā,3. cakkavattisuttavaṇṇanā,dasavassāyukasamayavaṇṇanā
103**.** yaṃ imesanti yasmiṃ samaye imesaṃ. alaṃpateyyāti patino dātuṃ yuttā. imāni rasānīti imāni loke aggarasāni. atibyādippissantīti ativiya dippissanti, ayameva vā pāṭho. kusalantipi na bhavissatīti kusalanti nāmampi na bhavissati, paññattimattampi na paññāyissatīti attho. pujjā ca bhavissanti pāsaṃsā cāti pūjārahā ca bhavissanti pasaṃsārahā ca. tadā kira manussā “asukena nāma mātā pahatā, pitā pahato, samaṇabrāhmaṇā jīvitā voropitā, kule jeṭṭhānaṃ atthibhāvampi na jānāti, aho puriso”ti tameva pūjessanti ceva pasaṃsissanti ca.
na bhavissati mātāti vāti ayaṃ mayhaṃ mātāti garucittaṃ na bhavissati. gehe mātugāmaṃ viya nānāvidhaṃ asabbhikathaṃ kathayamānā agāravupacārena upasaṅkamissanti. mātucchādīsupi eseva nayo. ettha ca mātucchāti mātubhaginī. mātulānīti mātulabhariyā. ācariyabhariyāti sippāyatanāni sikkhāpakassa ācariyassa bhariyā. garūnaṃ dārāti cūḷapitumahāpituādīnaṃ bhariyā. sambhedanti missībhāvaṃ, mariyādabhedaṃ vā.
tibbo āghāto paccupaṭṭhito bhavissatīti balavakopo punappunaṃ uppattivasena paccupaṭṭhito bhavissati. aparāni dve etasseva vevacanāni. kopo hi cittaṃ āghātetīti āghāto. attano ca parassa ca hitasukhaṃ byāpādetīti byāpādo. manopadūsanato manopadosoti vuccati. tibbaṃ vadhakacittanti piyamānassāpi paraṃ māraṇatthāya vadhakacittaṃ. tassa vatthuṃ dassetuṃ mātupi puttamhītiādi vuttaṃ. māgavikassāti migaluddakassa.
- Yaṃ imesanti" means “at which time for these”.
- “Alaṃpateyyāti” means “suitable to be given to a husband”.
- “Imāni rasānīti” refers to “these supreme tastes in the world”.
- “Atibyādippissantīti” means “they will shine excessively”, or this is the correct reading.
- “Kusalantipi na bhavissatīti” means “even the word ‘wholesome’ will not exist”, implying that even the concept will not be known.
- “Pujjā ca bhavissanti pāsaṃsā cāti” means “they will be worthy of worship and praise”. It’s said that people will worship and praise those who harm their parents or kill ascetics and brahmins, saying “Oh, what a man!”
- “Na bhavissati mātāti vāti” means there will be no respectful thought of “This is my mother”. They will approach women in the house with disrespect, speaking various improper things. The same applies to maternal aunts and others.
- “Mātucchā” means mother’s sister, “mātulānī” means uncle’s wife, “ācariyabhariyā” means the wife of a teacher who teaches skills, “garūnaṃ dārā” means the wives of respected elders like paternal uncles.
- “Sambhedanti” means mixing or breaking boundaries.
- “Tibbo āghāto paccupaṭṭhito bhavissatīti” means strong anger will be established, arising again and again. The next two are synonyms for this. Anger afflicts the mind, hence it’s called “āghāta”. It harms the welfare and happiness of oneself and others, hence “byāpāda”. It’s called “manopadosa” because it corrupts the mind.
- “Tibbaṃ vadhakacittanti” refers to a strong murderous intent, even towards loved ones. Examples are given, such as a son towards his mother, or a hunter towards deer.
Subcommentary of same place:
Dīgha Nikāya,Pāthikavaggaṭīkā,3. Cakkavattisuttavaṇṇanā,Dasavassāyukasamayavaṇṇanā
103 . ‘‘Yan’ ’ti iminā samayo āmaṭṭho, bhummatthe cetaṃ paccattavacananti āha ‘‘yasmiṃ samaye’ ’ti. Alaṃ patinoti alaṃpateyyā. Tassā pariyattatā bhariyābhāvenāti āha ‘‘dātuṃ yuttā’ ’ti. Aggarasānīti madhurabhāvena, bhesajjabhāvena ca aggabhūtarasāni.
Dippissantīti paṭipakkhabhāvena samujjalissanti. Tenāha ‘‘kusalantipi na bhavissatī’ti. Aho purisoti mātādīsupi īdiso, aññesaṃ kesaṃ kiṃ vissajjessati, aho tejavapurisoti.
Gehe mātugāmaṃ viyāti attano gehe dāsibhariyābhūtamātugāmaṃ viya. Missībhāvanti mātādīsu bhariyāya viya cārittasaṅkaraṃ.
Balavakopoti hantukāmatāvasena uppattiyā balavakopo. Āghātetīti āhanati, attano kakkhaḷapharusabhāvena cittaṃ vibādhatīti attho. Nissayadahanaraso hi doso. Byāpādetīti vināseti, manopadūsanato manassa pakopanato. Tibbanti tikkhaṃ, sā panassa tikkhatā sarīre avahantepi sinehavatthuṃ laṅghitvāpi pavattiyā veditabbāti āha ‘‘piyamānassapī’ ’tiādi.
- ‘Yan’ refers to the time, and this is a nominative case with a locative meaning," hence it says “at which time”.
- “Alaṃ patino” means “suitable for a husband” (alaṃpateyyā).
- “Her suitability as a wife” is explained as “fit to be given”.
- “Aggarasāni” refers to tastes that are supreme in terms of sweetness and medicinal properties.
- “Dippissanti” means they will shine brightly in opposition. Thus it says “even the word ‘wholesome’ will not exist”.
- “Aho puriso” (Oh, what a man!) refers to someone who acts this way even towards his mother, etc. What won’t he do to others? Oh, what a powerful man!
- “Like women in the house” means like female slaves or wives in one’s own house.
- “Missībhāvaṃ” refers to the mixing of proper conduct, treating mothers, etc., like wives.
- “Balavakopo” means strong anger arising with the intention to kill.
- “Āghāteti” means to strike, implying that it afflicts the mind with its harsh and rough nature. Hatred has the function of burning its basis.
- “Byāpādeti” means to destroy, because it corrupts and agitates the mind.
- “Tibbaṃ” means sharp, and its sharpness should be understood as operating even when affection is present, hence it says “even towards loved ones”.
Instead of 103, try 101.
Thank you finally got it. I am a bit shocked. Need to process this. Wow amazing, finally found a commentary citation on this. Ok, really thanks. I will be sure not to misrepresent the dhamma in this area then. Hmmm… really then it means sutta central forum mods would regard commentary as extreme view and block this particular commentary. Wow.
101 commentary
adhammarāgoti mātā mātucchā pitucchā mātulānītiādike ayuttaṭṭhāne rāgo. visamalobhoti paribhogayuttesupi ṭhānesu atibalavalobho. micchādhammoti purisānaṃ purisesu itthīnañca itthīsu chandarāgo. amatteyyatātiādīsu mātu hito matteyyo, tassa bhāvo matteyyatā, mātari sammā paṭipattiyā etaṃ nāmaṃ. tassā abhāvo ceva tappaṭipakkhatā ca amatteyyatā. apetteyyatādīsupi eseva nayo. na kule jeṭṭhāpacāyitāti kule jeṭṭhānaṃ apacitiyā nīcavuttiyā akaraṇabhāvo.
Norbu translator:
Adhammarāgo" (unlawful lust) refers to lust in inappropriate places, such as towards one’s mother, maternal aunt, paternal aunt, or uncle’s wife, etc.
“Visamalobho” (excessive greed) means extremely strong greed even for things that are suitable for consumption.
“Micchādhammo” (wrong practices) refers to sexual desire of men for men and women for women.
Regarding “amatteyyatā” (lack of respect for mother) and similar terms:
- “Matteyyo” means one who is beneficial to the mother. “Matteyyatā” is the state of being beneficial to the mother, which is the proper way to behave towards one’s mother. “Amatteyyatā” is the absence of this quality and its opposite behavior.
- The same principle applies to “apetteyyatā” (lack of respect for father) and other similar terms.
“Na kule jeṭṭhāpacāyitā” means the absence of showing respect and humility towards the elders in the family.
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I was going to make a post over there soon about it.
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I think it’ll get flagged to oblivion.
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