Do Cittas Cognise Groups of Atoms?

Abhidhamma
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Continuing the discussion from Is the Theravada system one of direct realism?:

Hi, everyone.

From an Abhidhammika standpoint, does a single moment of visual citta not also cognise a group of atoms?

​To illustrate this: moments of visual citta cognise the pixels on a screen, regardless of whether subsequent mental cittas have discerned those pixels.

​On an Ultra Full HD screen, visual cittas do not cease to cognise the pixels. The mental cittas simply arise with less resolute mental factors (cetasikas) for discerning those pixels, their edges, their variations, and their format. From the perspective of rūpa, would the same logic not apply?

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Hi Paulo
Cakkhu Vinnana (cakkhuviññāṇa) experiences visible object (i.e. colour) directly .
here is page 109 to 111 of Survey of Paramattha Dhammas

Summarising the different types of vīthi-cittas in the five-sense-door process, they are the following seven types:

  1. The first vīthi-citta is the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness, pañca-dvārāvajjana-citta.
  2. The second vīthi-citta is one of the five pairs of sense-cognitions, dvi-pañca-viññāṇas, which are seeing-consciousness, hearing-consciousness, smelling-consciousness, tasting-consciousness, and body-consciousness.
  3. The third vīthi-citta is the receiving-consciousness, sampaṭicchana-citta, that receives the object from the preceding citta, one of the sense-cognitions, after this has fallen away.
  4. The fourth vīthi-citta is the investigating-consciousness, santīraṇa-citta, which examines and considers the object.
  5. The fifth vīthi-citta is the determining-consciousness, votthapana-citta, which performs the function of determining whether it will be succeeded by kusala citta, akusala citta, or kiriyacitta (in the case of the arahat).
  6. The sixth type of vīthi-citta is the javana vīthi-citta, of which there are usually seven types in succession. Javana can be translated as impulsion or “running.” It goes quickly through the object with kusala citta, akusala citta, or kiriyacitta.
  7. The seventh type of vīthi-citta is the tadārammaṇa vīthi-citta (tadārammaṇa means “that object”) or tadālambana vīthi-citta (ālambana means delaying, hanging on). This citta is called in English retention or registering-consciousness. It performs the function of receiving the object, hanging on to the object after the javana-cittas, if the object has not yet fallen away, since rūpa lasts no longer than seventeen moments of citta.

The following summary shows the duration of an object that is rūpa, lasting as long as seventeen moments of citta:

• When a rūpa arises and impinges on a sense-base, the first moment of citta that arises and falls away is the bhavaṅga-citta that is called past bhavaṅga, atīta-bhavaṅga.
• The vibrating bhavaṅga, bhavaṅga calana, is the second moment of citta.
• The arrest bhavaṅga, bhavaṅgupaccheda, is the third moment of citta.
• The five-sense-door adverting-consciousness is the fourth moment of citta.
• One of the sense-cognitions is the fifth moment of citta.
• The receiving-consciousness is the sixth moment of citta.
• The investigating-consciousness is the seventh moment of citta.
• The determining-consciousness is the eighth moment of citta.
• The first javana-citta is the ninth moment of citta.
• The second javana-citta is the tenth moment of citta.
• The third javana-citta is the eleventh moment of citta.
• The fourth javana-citta is the twelfth moment of citta.
• The fifth javana-citta is the thirteenth moment of citta.
• The sixth javana-citta is the fourteenth moment of citta.
• The seventh javana-citta is the fifteenth moment of citta.

so the actual moment of seeing is extremely brief and then many other cittas in the sense door process and then bhavanga cittas and mind door processes. So really there is utter darkness that is punctuated by moments of colour - this is happening so rapidly that it seems as if we are seeing continually, when awake.

The cakkhu vinnana is a vipaka citta - the result of kusala or akusala done in the past. Thus the moment of seeing takes either an ittha or anitha object (desirable or undesirable) object depending on whether it it akusala or kusala vipaka.
For your question about atoms. The pali term is kalapa and one kalapa is extremely tiny as you know. Anyway it only sees the color that is present in all kalapas - maybe a mass or a small number, depending on the particular conditions. It is happening so fast, so many processes every split second.

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Many thanks for your reply. If I may, just to confirm whether I have understood correctly: so colour is neither a citta nor a cetasika, correct? For if it were a citta or a cetasika, cakkhuviññāṇa would be taking itself as its object, or the visible object would be the object of the sixth consciousness. Is my reasoning sound?

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The main reason for this post is that many, particularly philosophers, struggle to conceive of a world rich in colour and complex sound without cittas, assuming such a state must be silent and colourless.

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Based on what I have read, color is rupa. Each kalapa has color. The color of each kalapa is ultimate reality.

These in each kalapa are ultimate reality and are arising and perishing very quickly

  1. Pathavī (Earth): Hardness, solidity
  2. Āpo (Water): Cohesion, fluidity
  3. Tejo (Fire): Heat, coldness
  4. Vāyo (Air): Motion, pressure
  5. Vaṇṇa (Color): Appearance
  6. Gandha (Smell): Odor
  7. Rasa (Taste): Flavor
  8. Ojā (Nutrition): Nutritive essence
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Right , it is rupa , materiality. Very different from nama (citta, cetasika), mentality.

And so we see the helplessness of the world without the Buddha to describe and explain its real nature. Philosophers and thinkers and ascetics though the ages develop various theories that are either utterly wrong or only see a very limited aspect.
On the various wrong views this sutta and commentary translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi is superb.
bp209s-Bodhi_All-Embracing-Net-Of-Views.pdf (2.2 MB)

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I think the person asking the question might be wondering if sensitivity to color (rupapasada) can see a whole image or just a single color of a single rupa of a single kalapa. The idea is relating it to the sensors of cameras. 50 megapixel has better resolution than one single pixel camera.

The answer is , it sees what is available (more than one resolution). While computers and see sensors have nice relationships to abhidhamma, this analogy does not match .

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It is very tough to admit by dogmatists but if you meditate you can see that an object is not a kalappa but is a whole big field. For the eye the whole visual field is likely the object. Otherwise it makes no sense at all. The dhamma only makes sense with large objects. Real biology on the other hand shows that what we see as a visual field is made of of lots of data inputs. The way people try to push square pegs in round holes with abhidhamma is quite amusing. Seeing is so apparent and craving for sights, sounds etc are large and based on the fundamental error of not seeing just seeing in seeing but percieving a self seeing stuff. So don’t worry you wont find perfect answers unless you see what you see first.

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Hi, that is fine.
But, sorry, I did not understood your comment.

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That’s interesting. Are you a meditator? Could you explain more? When someone meditates and discern kalapas, do they see it on a big black field where kalapas are tiny dots arising and passing away? Is there darkness in the field where kalapas are arising and passing away? What about the color of each kalapa? For example, is the color of the each kalapa of a table the same as the color of the table itself.

Also, can the mind wander or have thoughts when seeing kalapas or is the concentration level so strong and similar to Jhana that there is no wandering thoughts? Also, can one sees these kalapas even when talking, walking or doing other activities or do they need to be sitting and have deep concentration level to continue seeing kalapas?

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Well you asked whether seeing sees atoms and it doesnt. Seeing doesnt even see photons individually. Seeing sees objects and those objects are part of a visual field. You see a dog, a cat, a woman etc. Perception recognises all these things instantly for a grown up individual. So look at things and see what you are seeing. It is all right in front of you. Seeing consciousness is quite amazing as all of the 6 bases are.

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But I did not asked whether seeing sees atoms. I asked whether seeing sees a group of atoms.

This is like saying that a crowd of people was seen. Not necessarily each individual person was seen, but the crowd was, and it refers to a large number of people.

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Don’t confuse the function of a soteriological, phenomenological ontology (Buddhism) with that of a non-reductive, physicalist one (Biology). The Buddha was not interested in science at all. The Abhidhamma provides an experiential and functional analysis of mind and matter, while biology provides a physicalist, organic ontology. Chemistry provides a physicalist organic and inorganic approach, etc. These worldviews fall under what Buddhists classify as nihilism, because they have a physical-materialist viewpoint. The logical conclusion of such nihilism (and the fact that there are religious scientists, and so forth, does not disprove this fact) is that your body breaks up when it dies and then there is nothing else to serve as a basis for consciousness to emerge from—this is annihilationism. From a Buddhist standpoint, holding this as your worldview has seriously negative consequences.

The Apannaka Sutta states:

“Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, ‘There is no next world’ is his wrong view. Because there actually is the next world, when he is resolved that ‘There is no next world,’ that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is the next world, when he speaks the statement, ‘There is no next world,’ that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is the next world, when he says that ‘There is no next world,’ he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who know the next world. Because there actually is the next world, when he persuades another that ‘There is no next world,’ that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.”

Don’t be persuaded by their physicalist rhetoric. Science has just barely scratched the surface, and is constantly updating it’s stance. Would you believe only the science of 20 years ago in the current year? No, of course not. Then you should be able to understand that you have no idea what science will find 20 years from now, 200 years from now, and so on…

You are better off taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha.

R

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That is a good point but my personal belief is that there is a big difference between Dhamma and Abhidhamma. Dhamma is verifiable. Abhidhamma is not. Mahasatipatthana sutta shows various methods of Dhammanupassana but non of them involve Abhidhamma. The ignorance of the four noble truths that leads to our suffering in samsara is not about atoms or small objects it is about our minds craving for sense pleasures, lives, and non lives. Our perception of self is not based on atoms or kalapas but on larger perceptions. Abhidhamma is ok but the citta vitthi ideas are flawed in the way people explain them. They only make sense as a model on paper. I prefer the real teaching of the Buddha in the Suttas. Abhidhamma has a shaky history and foundation.

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That is, it is about a continuum of cittas.

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There are six worlds: the world of visible object, of sound, odour, flavour, tangible object, and thinking. They are different from each other, different conditions all conditioning differently. But without the Dhamma we think ‘we’ are experiencing colour, sound , ‘we’ are thinking , we are happy or not. Through understanding Abhidhamma this truth can begin to be seen and so the books align exactly with what is real here and now.

The sense door processes and mind-door processes are always continuing and some people even think that seeing and hearing or thinking happen simultaneously - simply because of the rapidity. But there is always only one world, for a moment and then a new world again and again.

I don’t think so. The object of eye consciousness has to be ittha or anittha. Take an example of an attractive diamond ring that had fallen in some dog faeces . The moments of seeing the attractive colour are different from the moments of seeing the ugly brownish ones. But in a split second billions of processes occur and so this distinction may not be apparent.

This topic has some useful information:
objects

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What is an object is an important thing to investigate. The focus of our mind door might be the diamond ring, but our eye consciousness does not have craving in it does it?

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Right! The eye consciousness is vipaka citta, resultant; any craving comes in after that. This process is what ‘life’ is, ‘old’ kamma and new kamma. Life after life.

kamma and vipaka

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I would say they describe what is real very accurately, perfectly actually. Of course with our weak understanding, in this last half of the sasana, we can’t confirm every aspect of Abhidhamma - that is after all the province of the Buddha.
But we can see enough of it, as it shows in daily life, to infer the rest is also true.

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Abhidhamma’s truth becomes more and more evident the more you study it. When you really underrstand it, you begin to see how deep it is. It is, in fact, vaster than the ocean. People make claims about its historicity, but they really don’t have evidence to support their views—just a great deal of speculation.

You might enjoy listening to some of the recorded talks (discussions) here: https://www.dhammastudygroup.org/

R

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