Different types of "Nibbāna"

[Paññādhammika]

AN11.7:

“Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu is percipient thus: ‘This is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, the stilling of all activities, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna.’ It is in this way, Ānanda, that a bhikkhu could obtain such a state of concentration that he would not be percipient of earth in relation to earth; of water in relation to water; of fire in relation to fire; of air in relation to air; of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; of this world in relation to this world; of the other world in relation to the other world; of anything seen, heard, sensed, cognized, reached, sought after, and examined by the mind, but he would still be percipient.”

For short to refer to this state, I just call it as perceiving Nibbana.

There’s also another sutta where the Buddha seems to imply that there’s another state which is the highest happiness.

MN59

"Should anyone say: ‘That is the utmost pleasure and joy that beings experience,’ I would not concede that to him. Why is that? Because there is another kind of pleasure loftier and more sublime than that pleasure. And what is that other kind of pleasure? Here, Ānanda, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling. This is that other kind of pleasure loftier and more sublime than the previous pleasure.

To refer to this second state, I will say nirodha samapatti (attainment of cessation) for short. According to commentarial tradition, this state is only accessible to non-returners and arahants who has attained all the formless attainments.

Now, according to SN22.19

"Bhikkhus, form is suffering. The cause and condition for the arising of form is also suffering. As form has originated from what is suffering, how could it be happiness?

"Feeling is suffering … . Perception is suffering … . Volitional formations are suffering … . Consciousness is suffering. The cause and condition for the arising of consciousness is also suffering. As consciousness has originated from what is suffering, how could it be happiness?

Note that the 5 aggregates themselves are to be known as suffering, not just the clinging aggregates.

So given that there’s still perception and form (not dead) in perceiving nibbana, and there’s still form (not dead) in nirodha samapatti, but both of them should basically not perceive the body anyway, so form existing still as in not dead, cancel out for them. Given that perceiving nibbana has an additional aggregate of perception, it has at least that level of suffering associated with it as compared to nirodha samapatti.

Thus, I would rank nirodha samapatti as higher happiness compared to even perceiving nibbana.

There are another 2 types of nibbana to be discussed. Nibbana with remainder and nibbana without remainder. iti44

And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable and the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure and pain. His ending of passion, aversion, and delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.

And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining.".

As they are both used to refer to arahant, I map the first one to be when the arahant is still alive, and the most obvious result would be no greed, hatred, delusion, and no unpleasant mental feelings (TH248) thag16.1

707"There isn’t any mental suffering
For one without expectations, village chief.
All fears are left behind
By one whose fetters are ended.

Natthi cetasikaṁ dukkhaṁ, anapekkhassa gāmaṇi; Atikkantā bhayā sabbe ,khīṇasaṁyojanassa ve

.
The second one without remainder basically refers to parinibbana (death) of arahant, where the 5 aggregates, 6 sense bases ceases without remainder and no more rebirth. Ok, a corpse is left, but it doesn’t count as the arahant.

Compare nibbana without remainder to nirodha samapatti, both has no more mind, but the nirodha samapatti still has a living body. mn43

“Friend, in the case of one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat has been dissipated, and his faculties are fully broken up. In the case of a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling, his bodily formations have ceased and subsided, his verbal formations have ceased and subsided, his mental formations have ceased and subsided, but his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not been dissipated, and his faculties become exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a bhikkhu who has entered upon the cessation of perception and feeling.”

According to commentarial sources, the meditator typically do not stay longer than 7 days in nirodha samapatti and has to come out to go for alms to eat for the body to continue surviving. SuttaCentral
The vinaya teacher in Na Uyana told me that the origin story of why monks cannot store food is because of an arahant who wishes to get out of nirodha samapatti, eat the stored food and then go in again for another 7 days. So the very fact of having to come out and eat can be seen as a form of suffering associated with still having a living body. Thus nibbana without remainder is a superior happiness to nirodha samapatti.

Comparing nibbana with remainder (normal daily life of arahant) vs arahant in perceiving nibbana mode. It’s likely that arahant perceiving nibbana mode is happier due to having less things to perceive, less dukkha.

Thus, ranking the different types of nibbana according to their happiness, from the least to most happy:

1. Nibbana with remainder

2. Perceiving nibbana

3. Nirodha samapatti

4. Nibbana without remainder.

Of these, experience of 1 and 2 are possible, 3 and 4 are without mind. And 3 is not going to be attained by all arahants (for those who don’t attain the formless attainments).

How to gel this with the generic statement of nibbana is the highest bliss (Dhammapada verse)?

I believe that the suffering of nibbana with remainder comes from the remainder (5 aggregates), which is not nibbana itself. So that explains 1 and 2, as 2 still has the perception as the remainder. For 3, it’s not actually nibbana, but it’s the closest we can see to the nibbana without remainder. 3 is not nibbana as it’s a temporary state. So the true nibbana is actually the nibbana without remainder.

[renaldo]

@Paññādhammika

Thus, I would rank nirodha samapatti as higher happiness compared to even perceiving nibbana.

So attaining nirodha-samāpatti should be seen as higher than attaining nibbāna? I think I understand.

But what definition are you using for nibbāna here? In previous conversations, you didn’t seem to understand that nibbāna is a paramattha dhamma and became confused when it was explained to you. So are you still describing nibbāna as absolute nothingness in this sense as you were last week?

@Paññādhammika

Sort of like the highest level of nothing in the video. Not even the possibility of something appearing.

No mind, no body, nothing else. End of cognition means end of even ways of describing parinibbāna. Hence that one sutta where after the 6 sense bases ends without remainder, no profileration can be done. The important thing to note is end without remainder. No mind to see parinibbāna after death of arahants. But while alive, arahants can perceive nibbāna.

R

[Paññādhammika]

I see nibbana as parinibbana if there’s no further qualifications. That’s the pure nibbana, without remainder. The nibbana with remainder means the remainder are 5 aggregates. The 5 aggregates seeing the nibbana without remainder is the arahant perceiving nibbana. Perceiving nibbana is not the same as nibbana itself due to there’s still 5 aggregates seeing nibbana.

Closer to parinibbana is the cessation of mind as in nirodha samapatti.

Anyway, by the criterion of nibbana is permanent and unconditioned, it’s very clear that only parinibbana qualifies, the other 3 doesn’t qualify.

I am not sure if you have the perception that complete nothingness cannot be described at all. But clearly the Buddha did said a lot of things about nibbana. So the fact that it can be described doesn’t deny that it’s complete nothingness. It’s just that in parinibbana, there’s no being, no mind, no body, no basis for language, that’s why sometimes it’s said that nibbana cannot be described, but I think it’s more of cannot be described once parinibbana happened, but for living beings such as us, we can point to parinibbana and say it’s unborn, unconditioned can be perceived, etc.

So not sure if this is clear enough to gap any possible misunderstanding from using language. Like if nibbana being paramattha dhamma just means that nibbana can be perceived, can be described by language, then I would agree.

So attaining nirodha-samāpatti should be seen as higher than attaining nibbāna? I think I understand.

In terms of comparative happiness. Also, as I understand CT, only those arahants and non-returners who has practised the arupas can get to nirodha samapatti, whereas the earliest part where one perceives nibbana is stream winner stage. So by this they can be compared too.

[renaldo]

@Paññādhammika

I see nibbana as parinibbana if there’s no further qualifications.

Nibbāna was explained to you here:

@renaldo

We have to understand that nibbāna is real, at least in the functional sense (and it has its own sabhāva). That is to say, it becomes the real object of lokuttara cittas. It also acts as object condition for lokuttara cittas to contact it. Those lokuttara cittas uproot real defilements when they do contact it. But it’s tricky because nibbāna does not arise, change, or pass away, making it unique among paramattha dhammas. But this does not mean that Arahants “enter” some kind of nibbāna when they pass away. It isn’t like that at all. Nibbāna is simply a paramattha dhamma, and it is contacted by lokuttara cittas when they perform their function. For Arahants, there are no more conditions for the arising of any nāma or rūpa again after they pass away. At parinibbāna, there is no “entering” some kind of nibbāna.

“Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.”

—Vism. XVI

And from The Dispeller of Delusion:

(“Herein, which is the unformed element? It is the destruction of greed, the destruction of hate and the destruction of delusion”) is this: the unformed element is nibbāna, whose nature (sabhāva) is unformed. But because greed and so on are destroyed on coming to this (etaṃ āgamma), it is therefore called “the destruction of greed, the destruction of hate and the destruction of delusion”. This is the agreed commentary of the Teachers.

252. But a controversialist (vitandavādin) said: There is no independent nibbāna;

And here:

@bksubhuti

According to Classical Theravāda, the way Nibbāna is known is through path and fruition consciousness. Let’s skip the path consciousness because it only happens for a single mind-moment just before fruition consciousness. We will just talk about fruition. This is called phalasamāpatti. This is similar to a jhāna and Nibbāna is the object rather than a paṭibhāga-nimitta. This should be very clear. This is reflected in the extended Abhidhamma Citta list.

Once there is parinibbāna, there is no longer a citta. The five khandhas are extinguished with only dead matter remaining in the body. It is that simple.

If a Thai teacher teaches this, they have right view. I would suggest the teacher at Wat Khao Sanam Chai, in Hua Hin or similar teachers.

This is why we need Abhidhamma. The Thai teachers (Ajahn Brahm) you mentioned openly rejects the Abhidhamma.
Generally speaking, if a teacher rejects Abhidhamma, they are not considered to be of Classical Theravāda. We are not interested in anything else.

So what you are saying is: you don’t want to learn from or respect the tradition but bandy about your own ideas and preach them as if they were correct.

This isn’t the place for that.

R

[gregk]

Dhammapada Verses 183, 184 and 185
Anandattherapanha Vatthu

Sabbapapassa akaranam
kusalassa upasampada
sacittapariyodapanam
etam buddhana sasanam.

Khanti paramam tapo titikkha
nibbanam paramam vadanti buddha
na hi pabbajito parupaghati
na samano hoti param vihethayanto.

Anupavado anupaghato
patimokkhe ca samvaro
mattannuta ca bhattasmim
pantanca sayanasanam
adhicitte ca ayogo
etam buddhana sasanam.

NIbbana is a difficult concept. It is like a Zen Koan when you think about it at some point your mind can’t grasp it as it is unknown. I like the idea that it is the cessation of craving as in the suttas or the cessation of greed, anger and delusion. Those are all things I can experience and I think it would be very blissful to be free from those. It is what we do to get to the end of greed, anger, and delusion that inspires me everyday. The path is in these verses. When it is completed you see something, but when you are on the path you also see that it can only lead to one place. It purifies your mind even if only from moment to moment. Don’t let these people bully you with learnt answers, but find your own by doing good. Grow in wisdom through your own practise and in your own time you will see that Nibbana Paramam vadanti Buddha.

[Paññādhammika]

@renaldo

So what you are saying is: you don’t want to learn from or respect the tradition but bandy about your own ideas and preach them as if they were correct.

Once there’s at least intellectual understanding, one can use various words to express one’s understanding. The important thing is to see if we understand the same thing via the words. So far, I see no issue with your quotes. I see you also use your own words for what you understand about Nibbāna. So could it be that you have a preconceived judgement on me that you cannot evaluate my words in an unbiased manner?