Which is more meritorious: doing a lot of donations and charity as a lay person, taking care of one’s parents, and practicing 5 precepts for one’s entire life or ordaining as a monk and practicing the Dhamma? What about in the case where a monk fails to attain jhana? I think all monks who observe the 227 rules and have good teachers can attain jhana if they practice hard, but I’m just asking about a hypothetical scenario. Does a monk have opportunities to do a lot of good deeds like lay people?
In the suttas, there are plenty of times where the “stay a lay person and offer dana” is a failed/bad justification for not ordaining.
That’s interesting. Could you provide some suttas where that is mentioned?
Raṭṭhapāla MN82 is the most famous…
While enjoying sensual pleasures, delight in making merit.
bhuñjanto pivanto paricārento kāme paribhuñjanto puññāni karonto abhiramassu.
Also MN67
18.8 ‘Formerly, as laypeople, we amused ourselves, supplied and provided with the five kinds of sensual stimulation.
‘mayaṁ kho pubbe agāriyabhūtā samānā pañcahi kāmaguṇehi samappitā samaṅgībhūtā paricārimhā.
18.9 And it’s true that my family is wealthy.
Saṁvijjanti kho pana me kule bhogā.
18.10 I can both enjoy my wealth and make merit.’
Sakkā bhoge ca bhuñjituṁ puññāni ca kātun’ti.
18.11 They resign the training and return to a lesser life.
So sikkhaṁ paccakkhāya hīnāyāvattati.
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I found an interesting verse in the commentary to the Nimi Jataka.
The King Sakka at that time said this to King Nimi:
“Mahārāja, dānato sataguṇena sahassaguṇena satasahassaguṇena brahmacariyavāsova mahapphalo.”
“Great king, compared to giving, the living of the holy life has fruit a hundredfold, a thousandfold, even a hundred-thousandfold greater.”
It’s also mentioned that a Bhikkhu with pure virtue can be reborn in any of the six heavenly realms that he wants. If he has Jhana, he can be reborn in the Brahma realm. But attaining arahantship is the highest fruit.
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You might find this interesting then:
okkha sutta SN 20.4
Velāma sutta AN 9.20
If this is purely for creating Punna kamma (making merit) then establishing one self in virtue practicing Metta meditation towards the entire world system (all beings may it be human , deva, Bhrama, Animals) brings about a lot of merit (Punna Kamma)
But Developing wisdom is far greater than Punna Kamma, because its a path to Nibbana which is the highest.
thats why Developing Anicca Sanna is mentioned in Velāma sutta since this Sassana is about developing wisdom and the path to Nibbana.
Samadhi Sutta SN 22.5
Ordination allows you to do these without interruption and develop the factors of enlightenment. even if the monks follow the 227 rules with confidence of the triple gems that would be for their benefit.
being a lay person you can still develop these states, but might would have interruptions due to the mode of the lay life.
This exact question was asked in a jataka tale. Answer was ordination.
The Teacher explained this to the assembled monks in the following lines:
1. "It was a marvel in the world how good men did arise
In the days of good king Nimi, the worthy and the wise.2. Alms gave Videha’s monarch, the conqueror of his foes;
And as he gave in generosity, this thought in him arose:
‘Which is more fruitful – holy life or giving alms?’ Who knows?"At that moment Sakka’s throne became hot. Sakka pondering the [6.55] reason, saw him reflecting there. {6.98} “I will solve the question,” he said; and going about, and swiftly, he made the palace one blaze of light, and entering the chamber, stood there glowing; and at the king’s request, made all clear.
To explain this, the Teacher said:
3. “The mighty monarch of the gods, he of the thousand eyes,
Perceives his thought; before his light away the darkness flies.”Great Nimi spake to Vāsava, and all his flesh did creep:
4. “Who are you? Or a demigod or Sakka’s self must be:
For I have never seen or heard such glory as I see.”Then Vāsava to Nimi spake, knowing his flesh did creep:
5. “Sakka, the king of gods, I am; to visit you I’m here;
Ask what you will, O king, and let your flesh not creep for fear.”Then Nimi spake to Vāsava, this invitation made:
6. “Most puissant lord of all that breathe, this question solve for me:
Holy to live, or alms to give, which should more fruitful be?”7. Then Vāsava to Nimi spake, solving his question so,
And told the fruit of holy life to him who did not know:8. "He’s born a Khattiya, who lives holy in the third degree:
A god, the middle; and the first brings perfect purity.9. Not easy are these states to win by any generosity,
Which ascetics who have left the world win by austerity." {6.99}By these verses he illustrated the great fruitfulness of a holy life, and then recited others, naming the kings who in times past had been unable to get beyond the domain of sense by giving great gifts:
10. "Dudīpa, Sāgara, Sela, Mucalinda, Bhagīrasa,
Usīnara and Aṭṭhaka, Assaka, and Puthujjana,11. Yea, kings and brahmins, Khattiya chiefs, many and many a one,
For all their sacrifice, beyond the Peta world came none."Having thus explained how much greater was the fruitfulness of holy life than that of almsgiving, he described those ascetics who by the holy life had passed the Peta world to be born in Brahma’s Realm, and said:
12-13. “These holy ascetics who had left the world,
Seven sages, passed beyond: Yāmahanu,
Somayāga, Manojava, Samudda,
Māgha, and Bharata, and Kālikara:
Four others: Kassapa, Aṅgīrasa,
Akitti, Kisavaccha, these besides.” {6.100}So far, he described by tradition the great fruit of a holy life; but now he went on, declaring what he had himself seen:
14. "Sīdā’s a river in the north, unnavigable, deep:
About it, like a fire of reeds, blaze golden mountains steep, [6.56]15. With creepers filled and fragrant plants, river and hills as well.
Thereby ten thousand eremites once on a time did dwell.16. Noble am I, who kept the vow of temperance, self-control,
Almsgiving: solitary then tended each steadfast soul.17. Caste or no caste, the upright man I would attend at need:
For every mortal man is bound by his own act and deed.18. Apart from righteousness, all castes are sure to sink to hell:
All castes are purified if they are righteous and act well." {6.102}After this, he said: “But, great king, although holy living is more fruitful by far than almsgiving, yet both these are the thoughts of great men: do you be watchful in both, give alms and follow virtue.” With this advice, he went to his own place.