Is it true that in the commentarial cosmological model, world is flat? This was mentioned in a lecture by Ven. Maggavihari from IIT. So, it’s safe to assume in classical Theravada world (cosmological) is explained using a flat model?
Its somewhat true, because they model it as human “realm” middle, hell realms under and heaven and brahma realms over. With the other “continents” on the same level as the earth and mount sumeru in the middle of the continents. Although i’d say this was more for ease of understanding rather than literal, since most of these realms are invisible to the human eye anyways.
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Mumfie and @zerotime had a discussion here:
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=44273
Mumfie: you can search in internet with the pali term tulamandale . This is the term of reference which means “disk, round flat circle”.
you can search in internet with the pali term tulamandale . This is the term of reference which means “disk, round flat circle”.
A tulamaṇḍala is the name for the dish or pan of a set of scales, in which, or upon which, one places the items to be weighed.
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It gets related to the Earth in one of the verses of the Sāriputta Apadāna:
Dhāretuṁ pathaviṁ sakkā,
ṭhapetvā tulamaṇḍale;
Na tveva tava sabbaññu,
ñāṇaṁ sakkā dharetave.It may be possible to weigh the earth,
having placed it on a scale,
But All-Knowing One,
it’s impossible to measure your knowledge.
But this doesn’t tell us anything about the Earth’s shape, for though the tulamaṇḍalas themselves will most often be circular, the items that you weigh in them can be of any shape.
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zerotime wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 2:37 very interesting… Then maybe it should be another -mandala word?.
Mumfie: Maybe. There are over fifty Pāli compounds that begin or end with the word maṇḍala. An obvious candidate would be the sutta term paṭhavīmaṇḍala, “earth circle”. However, this term tells us little, for it would be equally compatible with a spherical earth or an earth that’s a circular plane. And so some translators translate it as sphere:
Without force, without weapons,
I conquered this earth.
I ruled it by righteousness,
without violence, by Dhamma,
exercising rulership by Dhamma
over this sphere of the earth.
(AN7.62. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
And others as a circle:
‘Long ago, O Brahman, there was a king by name Wide-realm (Mahā Vijita), mighty, with great wealth and large property; with stores of silver and gold, of aids to enjoyment, of goods and corn; with his treasure-houses and his garners full. Now when King Wide-realm was once sitting alone in meditation he became anxious at the thought: “I have in abundance all the good things a mortal can enjoy. The whole wide circle of the earth (mahantaṃ pathavimaṇḍalaṃ) is mine by conquest to possess. ‘Twere well if I were to offer a great sacrifice that should ensure me weal and welfare for many days.”
(DN5. Thomas Rhys Davids)
As I remarked earlier, I don’t think the Buddha of the suttas is concerned with declaring whether the earth is a plane or a sphere. What really matters (i.e., for samvega purposes) is that it’s a mostly bumpy and hazardous sort of place:
“In this Jambudīpa delightful parks, groves, landscapes, and lotus ponds are few, while more numerous are hills and slopes, rivers that are hard to cross, places with stumps and thorns, and rugged mountains.”
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If the flat earth model is to be taken seriously as things seen via divine eye by the ancients, therefore they are written in the commentaries or I dunno the exact source, then one way to gel it with common astronomical knowledge is to posit that spherical earth is gross materiality, subtle materiality which is seen by divine eye, concerning gods, other supernormal beings etc has flat earth.
In Physics, we have dark matter, which is many more times massive compared to normal matter in the universe. The dark means we dunno what it is, we only know it must exist due to the gravitational influence it has. Modification of gravity theories has been put forth to not require dark matter, but so far dark matter is still the most convenient explaination.
When I mentioned about dark matter to one of the monks here, he was very interested in it. Could dark matter be the subtle materiality, which doesn’t seem to interact with the strong, electromagnetic and weak force, but only with gravity and maybe their own internal forces?
One can imagine a dark atom, biology etc… or some totally different kind of arrangement.
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Hello Venerable Sir,
I agree with this. I think for those who do not have divine eye or other superpowers, the earth is a sphere and even if they try to explore the world, they would just end up where they were because the earth is a sphere for them. It’s a sphere so that humans from our world can’t visit Mount Meru and Uttarakuru no matter how hard we try if we don’t have superpowers, but for gods and those with superpowers, I think they would be able to see the earth as flat and be able to visit Mount Meru or Uttarakuru. I think Mount Meru is subtle materiality too because it can only be seen with the divine eye. I really hope one day I can get the divine eye so that I can see Mount Meru and other places. I wonder what would happen if NASA takes someone with the divine eye to space. They might see something completely different from what we know.
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I thought the point of divine eye is like can see everything from all angles?
So one doesn’t need to be physically in space to see other things. What divine eye sees should be the same regardless of one’s physical location, just depends on the attention directed which object.
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The fact that we don’t understand Mt. Meru negates our understanding of “flat”. Therefore, we cannot conclude that flat means flat as we know it in reality. I side with a multi-dimensional (4 dimensions or larger) view, or something we don’t know how to perceive.
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Speculating about mount meru just makes me tired and frustrated because I really want to know where it is and how it looks like. I think it’s better if I work towards attaining the divine eye instead of speculating. However, as a lay person, it’s hard to fully dictate myself to meditating all the time, but I have to do my best.
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That Mount Meru includes all the realms, not just the Human and animal realm, means it’s not Earth that is being thought of. The Buddha had knowledge of trillions of aeons past. He knew about planets, suns, galaxies and so on. To understand Mt. Meru you have to understand the context of the teaching, to whom he was giving the teaching. There isn’t a literal mountain. It’s the Blessed One giving a teaching in a way that the audience at the time would have understood. Isn’t that one of the Paṭisambhidas?
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I think this picture says a lot. Surely, it is far from flat but it depends on how one is describing it. Furthermore, yes we cannot see the other dimension of the worlds not seen by humans. Of the 4 islands, only one is known to normal human perception. I believe in Mt. Meru even though I cannot see it. It goes beyond cultures, such as Mt. Olympus.
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