Can stream winner actually have more than 7 lifetimes left?

General Theravada topics
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  1. Ratana sutta says stream winner no matter how negligent wouldn’t have an 8th existence.

  2. Once-returner is said to only have one more existence left.

  3. Non-returners are said to be reborn in pure abodes, and there’s 5 levels of them, so if they don’t become arahant in their whole lifespan in the lowest of the pure abode, they go up one more level and so on until the highest. In total, could be 5 lifetimes left for non-returners. Or maybe more, if non-returners are free to choose to be reborn in any of the Brahma realms, form or formless.

So this gives 2 possibilities.

  1. Stick strictly to ratana sutta. So a stream winner who has already got 7 more lives lived in negligence, must no matter what, become an arahant in that final lifetime to not have an 8th existence. Even if they become once-returner, or non-returner, they will not die before arahanthood is attained. Or that the attainment is as they die.

  2. Don’t take the ratana sutta as seriously, a stream winner can become a once-returner after 6 lifetimes, and a once returner who came back can still become non-returner, and no need to become arahant. A non-returner can choose however long to “enjoy” the form and formless realms and occasionally visit a new fully enlightened Buddha to ask him to teach the dhamma, and continue wander in saṁsāra (of the brahma world) until they are finally ready to become arahant.

Does the commentaries say anything of which is the case? I am currently on the second interpretation, as I find it hard to imagine a law of nature that says once returner who came back already cannot become non-returner and die, but must become arahant.

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Venerable,

please see what Abhidhamma says at

Abhidhamma - Puggalapaññatti 2.1 commentary
Niddesavaṇṇanā - Ekakaniddesavaṇṇanā

Regards

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Page 361 Manual of Abhidhamma

Ledi Sayadaw points out that the Commentaries offer two conflict- ing interpretations of the expression “this world” (ima½ loka½), to which the once-returner may return one more time. On one interpretation it is the human world, to which he may return from a heavenly world; on the other it is the sense-sphere world, to which he may return from a Brahma-world. Ledi Sayadaw maintains that in spite of commentarial support for the former interpretation, the second seems better supported by the canonical texts. According to the commentary to the Puggalapaññatti there are five kinds of once-returner: (1) One attains the fruit of once-returning in the human world, takes rebirth in the human world, and attains final Nibb±na here. (2) One attains the fruit of once-returning in the human world, takes rebirth in a heavenly world, and attains final Nibb±na there. (3) One attains the fruit in a heavenly world, takes rebirth in a heav- enly world, and attains final Nibb±na there. (4) One attains the fruit in a heavenly world, takes rebirth in the hu- man world, and attains final Nibb±na here. (5) One attains the fruit in the human world, takes rebirth in a heav- enly world and passes the full life-span there, and then takes rebirth again in the human world, where one attains final Nibb±na. It should be noted that whereas the ekab²j² stream-enterer has only one more rebirth, the fifth type of once-returner has two. Nevertheless, he is still called “once-returner” because he returns only once more to the human world.

§40 The Non-Returner
Having developed the path of non-returning, by totally abandon- ing sensual lust and ill will, one becomes a non-returner, one who does not return to this (sensuous) state.

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Maybe your directions is not clear enough, what I got from the translation from gemini, is not relevant to the question I asked.

Now, let us divide the text into its proper parts, starting from the beginning, and explain it – who is the person called “liberated from time”?
Here, “here” means in this world of beings.
“One person” means a single individual.
“By time” means by the course of time, by the sequence of moments.
“He dwells, having attained” means he dwells having attained.
“The eight liberations” are the eight attainments of liberation: the four immaterial attainments (arūpasamapatti) and the four immaterial attainments with residual mental formations (saññāvedayitasamapatti).
They are called “liberations” because they are liberations from the five aggregates of grasping.
“With the body” means with the physical body, which is the instrument of liberation.
“He dwells, having attained” means he dwells having attained.
At what time, then, does he dwell, having attained, with the body?
There is a time called the time for attaining attainment, and there is a time not for attaining attainment.
Of these, the time for stretching, the time for walking, and the time for preparing the sitting place are not the time for attaining attainment.
But when one has stretched, walked, and gone to the sitting place and sat down, until the time comes to go for alms, this is the time for attaining attainment.

Also

@bksubhuti your quote didn’t answer my question. It’s more about stream winners, since ratana sutta just refers to stream winner and not once returners.

Oh I see, you’re saying that for the types of once returners, there is no such thing as after they got reborn as human or heavenly realm, they die as non-returner and go up to pure abodes, but they must become arahant already.

So this supports the first interpretation. Strictly 7 life times max. No extension via non-returner attainment at the final of the 7 lifetimes.

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Venerable,
to my understanding Bhante Subhuti reply is from the same section I referred.
(though even to my nearly zero pali skills ,the translation looks incomplete)
It seems you got your answer from his reply if not from my reply.
Do you still have question left so that I can perform quick translation and reply.

Regards

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