Can one practice vipassana while in jhāna?

Hello,

The Pa-Auk system states that vipassana cannot be practiced while in jhāna.

The reason given is technical and precise (I really like this ahah): the object of jhana is an unreal concept (nimitta), whereas the object of vipassana is a real object.

To practice jhana, you have to get out of vipassana. And to practice vipassana, you have to get out of jhana.

So I have two questions:

1/ are there any suttas in which the Buddha states quite clearly that you have to come out of jhana to practice vipassana?

2/ AN 9.36 gives me the IMPRESSION of quite clearly affirming that one can practice vipassana while being in jhāna. With regard to this sutta, how does Pa-Auk argue against this impression?

May the Sangha be preserved from the dangers of the form.

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Impossible to have moments of vipassana in mundane jhana. The jhana cittas are taking one object repeatedly.

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Try Majjhima Nikaya sutta no 4. Doesn’t sound like the Buddha was in Jhana at the time he directed his mind to these things does it?

Extract translation I made here: Prince Siddhattha’s Enlightenment

Strenuous effort and unremitting mindfulness were present in me, my body was peaceful and tranquil and my mind concentrated and one-pointed. Then being detached from sensual desire and unwholesome states I attained and dwelt in the first jhana which has initial and sustained application of the mind, joy, and pleasure born of detachment (from the hindrances). With the subsiding of initial and sustained application of the mind I attained and dwelt in the second jhana, with internal tranquility and one-pointedness of mind, without initial and sustained application of the mind, but with joy and pleasure born of concentration. Being without joy, I dwelt in equanimity with mindfulness and clear understanding, and experienced pleasure in mind and body. I attained and dwelt in the third jhana which causes a person who attains it to be praised by the Noble Ones as one who has equanimity and mindfulness, one who abides in pleasure. By becoming detached from both pleasure and pain and by the previous cessation of mental happiness and pain, I attained and dwelt in the fourth jhana a state of pure mindfulness born of equanimity.

Then when my mind was thus concentrated, pure, clean, unblemished, undefiled, pliant, workable, stable, and unshakable, I directed my mind towards the attainment of the knowledge of recollection of my past lives. (pubbenivasanussati nana) And I recollected my various past lives. That is to say, one life, two lives, three lives, four lives, five lives, ten lives, twenty lives, thirty lives, forty lives, fifty lives, one hundred lives, one thousand lives, one hundred thousand lives, many ages of devolution of the universe, many ages of evolution of the universe, many ages of devolving and evolving of the universe. I knew, “In that life such was my name, clan, appearance, food, experience of pleasure and pain, and life span. Having passed away from there I arose in such and such a place, and there such was my name, clan, appearance, food, experience of pleasure and pain, and life span, and having passed away from there I arose here.” In this way with details and particulars I recollected my various past lives. This was the first knowledge attained by me in the first watch of the night, ignorance vanished, knowledge arose, darkness vanished, light arose, just as it should in one who has unremitting mindfulness, strenuous effort, and a controlled mind.

Then when my mind was thus concentrated, pure, clean, unblemished, undefiled, pliant, workable, stable, and unshakable, I directed my mind towards the attainment of the knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings. With the divine eye (dibbacakkhu) which is purified and surpasses the human eye I saw beings passing away and reappearing, inferior, superior, of good appearance, of bad appearance, going to a good destiny and going to a bad destiny. I understood how beings go on according to their actions thus, "Those beings possessed of evil bodily conduct, evil verbal conduct, and evil mental conduct, who revile Noble Ones, are wrong in their views, and who give effect to wrong views in their actions, they on the breakup of the body after death arrive in a state of misery, in a bad destiny, in a place of suffering, in hell. But those beings possessed of good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, and good mental conduct, who do not revile Noble Ones, are right in their views, and give effect to right views in their actions they on the breakup of the body after death arrive in a good destiny, in heaven. In this way with the divine eye which is purified and surpasses the human eye I saw beings passing away and reappearing, inferior, superior, of good appearance, of bad appearance, going to a good destiny and going to a bad destiny, and I understood how beings go on according to their actions. This was the second knowledge attained by me in the second watch of the night, ignorance vanished, knowledge arose, darkness vanished, light arose, just as it should in one who has unremitting mindfulness, strenuous effort, and a controlled mind.

Then when my mind was thus concentrated, pure, clean, unblemished, undefiled, pliant, workable, stable, and unshakable, I directed my mind towards the attainment of the knowledge of the destruction of the currents (asavakkhaya nana). I understood as it really is that, “This is suffering”. I understood as it really is that, “This is the cause of suffering”. I understood as it really is that, “This is the cessation of suffering”. I understood as it really is that, “This is the practise which leads to the cessation of suffering”. I understood as it really is that, “These are the currents (asava)”. I understood as it really is that, “This is the cause of the currents”. I understood as it really is that, “This is the cessation of the currents”. I understood as it really is that, “This is the practise that leads to the cessation of the currents.” When I had known and seen in this way my mind was freed from the current of sense desire, my mind was freed from the current of desire for existence, and my mind was freed from the current of ignorance. Being free the knowledge arose, “I am free”. And I knew, “Rebirth is no more, I have finished living the life of purity (brahmacariya), done is what should be done, for attaining the goal of Arahatship I have nothing more to do.” This was the third knowledge attained by me in the third watch of the night, ignorance vanished, knowledge arose, darkness vanished, light arose, just as it should in one who has unremitting mindfulness, strenuous effort, and a controlled mind.

(Extract from Majjhima Nikaya Sutta No.4)|

Dear Greg,
great to have you on the forum. Ven. Subhuti mentioned you to me and I just read over your fascinating biography on Insight Myanmar. This part was exceedingly well put (IMO).:

Greg notes that teachers instruct others as they themselves have learned, and so their meditation techniques always have the most coherence and impact within their own system—that is why it is essential to examine them critically in their relationship to the source materials.

Along these lines, while Greg sees the value in learning under multiple teachers, he also feels it is important to follow the teaching of each particular tradition to the letter. Since many traditions claim the same source (which he notes in Burma is the Maha Satipattana sutta), yet can also seem to contradict each other according to interpretation, sticking to the guideline of taking teaching on its own merits is critical for the yogi to keep in mind. But again, he repeatedly advocates that to keep one’s bearings, yogis should keep reorienting themselves to the Pāḷi texts, the Eightfold Noble path and the Four Noble Truths. Greg likens finding the Buddha’s true teaching inside any iteration of a technique or system to panning for gold: keep at it, search out gold amid the muck, and it will eventually show itself… and above all else, don’t believe what you’re taught hook, line and sinker.

Back to your post.
The Commentary:

Imāni ca pana cattāri jhānāni kesañci cittekaggatatthāni honti, kesañci vipassanāpādakāni, kesañci abhiññāpādakāni, kesañci nirodhapādakāni, kesañci bhavokkamanatthāni. Tattha khīṇāsavānaṃ cittekaggatatthāni honti. Te hi samāpajjitvā ekaggacittā sukhaṃ divasaṃ viharissāmāti iccevaṃ kasiṇaparikammaṃ katvā aṭṭha samāpattiyo nibbattenti. Sekkhaputhujjanānaṃ samāpattito vuṭṭhāya samāhitena cittena vipassissāmāti nibbattentānaṃ vipassanāpādakāni honti. Ye pana aṭṭha samāpattiyo nibbattetvā abhiññāpādakajjhānaṃ samāpajjitvā samāpattito vuṭṭhāya ‘‘ekopi hutvā bahudhā hotī’’ti (dī. ni. 1.238; paṭi. ma. 1.102) vuttanayā abhiññāyo patthentā nibbattenti, tesaṃ abhiññāpādakāni honti. Ye pana aṭṭha samāpattiyo nibbattetvā nirodhasamāpattiṃ samāpajjitvā sattāhaṃ acittā hutvā diṭṭheva dhamme nirodhaṃ nibbānaṃ patvā sukhaṃ viharissāmāti nibbattenti, tesaṃ nirodhapādakāni honti. Ye pana aṭṭha samāpattiyo nibbattetvā aparihīnajjhānā brahmaloke uppajjissāmāti nibbattenti, tesaṃ bhavokkamanatthāni honti.

the breakdown of main points:

Sekkhaputhujjanānaṃ samāpattito vuṭṭhāya samāhitena cittena vipassissāmāti
For trainees and worldlings, having emerged from absorption, thinking “I will contemplate with a concentrated mind,”

nibbattentānaṃ vipassanāpādakāni honti
for those generating (them thus), they serve as the basis for insight.


Ye pana aṭṭha samāpattiyo nibbattetvā abhiññāpādakajjhānaṃ samāpajjitvā
But those who, having produced the eight attainments, enter jhāna as a basis for abhiññā,

**samāpattito vuṭṭhāya “ekopi hutvā bahudhā hotī”ti
and after emerging think “Being one, he becomes many,”

vuttanayā abhiññāyo patthentā nibbattenti
aiming for the superknowledges as explained, generate it (the jhāna),

tesaṃ abhiññāpādakāni honti
for them, it serves as basis for abhiññā.

So the key term is vuṭṭhāya, emerging. The one who has mastery of jhana in this way can emerge from jhana quickly and reenter quickly. Then they can use this for supernormal powers or to investigate factors (as in vipassana).

how quick is this:

Vism. IV 78

78.Tatrimā pañca vasiyo āvajjanavasī, samāpajjanavasī, adhiṭṭhānavasī, vuṭṭhānavasī, paccavekkhaṇavasīti.
Herein, these are the five kinds of mastery: mastery in adverting, mastery in attaining, mastery in resolving (steadying the duration), mastery in emerging, and mastery in reviewing.
Paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ yatthicchakaṃ yadicchakaṃ yāvadicchakaṃ āvajjeti, āvajjanāya dandhāyitattaṃ natthīti āvajjanavasī.
“He adverts to the first jhāna where, when, and for as long as, he wishes; he has no difficulty in adverting; thus it is mastery in adverting.
Paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ yatthicchakaṃ - pe - samāpajjati, samāpajjanāya dandhāyitattaṃ natthīti samāpajjanavasī.
He attains the first jhāna where … he has no difficulty in attaining; thus it is mastery in attaining” (Paṭis I 100),
Evaṃ sesāpi vitthāretabbā.
and all the rest should be quoted in detail (XXIII.27).
Ayaṃ panettha atthappakāsanā, paṭhamajjhānato
vuṭṭhāya paṭhamaṃ vitakkaṃ āvajjayato bhavaṅgaṃ upacchinditvā uppannāvajjanānantaraṃ vitakkārammaṇāneva cattāri pañca vā javanāni javanti.
132. The
explanation of the meaning here is this. When he emerges from the first jhāna and first of all adverts to the applied thought, then, next to the adverting that arose interrupting the life-continuum, either four or five impulsions impel with that applied thought as their object.
Tato dve bhavaṅgāni, tato puna vicārārammaṇaṃ āvajjanaṃ, vuttanayāneva javanānīti evaṃ pañcasu jhānaṅgesu yadā nirantaraṃ cittaṃ pesetuṃ sakkoti, athassa āvajjanavasī siddhā hoti.
Then there are two life-continuum [consciousnesses]. Then there is adverting with the sustained thought as its object and followed by impulsions in the way just stated. When he is able to prolong his conscious process uninterruptedly in this way with the five jhāna factors, then his mastery of adverting is successful. […]

Accharāmattaṃ vā dasaccharāmattaṃ vā khaṇaṃ ṭhapetuṃ samatthatā adhiṭṭhānavasī nāma.
134. Ability to remain in jhāna for a moment consisting in exactly a finger- snap or exactly ten finger-snaps is called mastery in resolving (steadying the duration).
Tatheva lahuṃ vuṭṭhātuṃ samatthatā vuṭṭhānavasī
nāma.
Ability to emerge quickly in the same way is called mastery in emerging.

But there can be no vipassana while remaining in jhana.

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Yes it does. :slightly_smiling_face:

Yes, the Buddha emerged from jhana here however it is because the vipassana here was towards things (past births, kamma of beings, four nobles truths & arising & ending of asava) not related to jhana. But, when in jhana, vipassana is practiced towards the true nature of the jhana, as said in AN 9.36, MN 111 and elsewhere. If vipassana was not practiced in jhana, how would it be realized the jhana is impermanent, unsatisfactory & not-self?

Abhidhammattha sangaha (Anuruddha) translated as A comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

Guide (note by Bodhi) p. 136

“although citta experiences objects, citta in turn can become an object. It should be noted that a citta in its immediacy cannot become an its own object, for the cognizer cannot cognize itself; but a citta in an individual mental continuum can experience earlier cittas in that same continuum as well as the cittas of other beings”
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Immediately after exiting jhana the jhana factors can be understood.

The great ones who are jhana labhi can enter and exit jhana rapidly and jhana is like daily life for.them.
They are so gifted they can be walking and entering and exiting jhana for example.

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Venerable Dhammanando just wrote an excellent post on dhammawheel about this:

See the first three suttas in the Udāna and any others with the phrase tamhā samādhimhā vuṭṭhahitvā (“after having emerged from that state of concentration”).

In the Udāna’s Bodhi Suttas the Buddha engages in paccavekkhaṇa with respect to dependent arising “after having emerged from that state of concentration” and not while he’s still in it. The samādhi in question is arahatta-phala-samāpatti, in which the strength of concentration is that of the fourth rūpa-jhāna.

So in these cases the matter is very clear cut, though admittedly there are few of them in the suttas. With most others the fact that vipassanā-bhāvanā or paccavekkhaṇa or the development of supernormal powers are undertaken after emergence and not while in jhāna needs to be inferred from the grammar of the passage (i e., the use of participles in the locative case to indicate a temporal disjunction between the time when one is in jhāna and the time one engages in jhāna-based activities. It’s seldom evident in English translations

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It is possible to practice Vipassana in jhana. That is the way of Samathayanikas.

It is possible to practice Vipassana in jhana. That is the way of Samathayanikas. When try to think in jhana, one’s mind automatically comes to the second concentration level with the power of that jhana. Second concentration level is also known as access meditation.

Do you have a source for this opinion?

Yes. Buddhist sutras such as Maha Assapura Sutra.

Hi Richard,

We need to take into account the Tipitaka as a whole, otherwise we can misunderstand a section or a sutta.

The object of the citta during jhana is a concept that is taken repeatedly, and thus there is ‘absorption’ on that object. There are no sense door processes. It is so different from normal life.

Vipassana is not like that - For satipatthana vipassana the object is a paramattha dhamma, it can be any moment - seeing and visible object, hardness or heat, painful feeling, anger, lust, boredom, just to name a few. Thus it is very daily life - the objects for vipassana and also the development of vipassana is ‘daily life’ in the sense that there are always opportunities to begin to know these ordinary objects.

But in concentration i myself was able to think while nimitta was visible. I just couldn’t think lustful thoughts even though i wanted to do it as a test.

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Explain to me how Brahmas think, while in jhana… How Brahmas do vipassana and other thinkings while in jhana? There are suttas where Buddha even talked with them.

From page 197 Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma

Paṭhamajjhānavipākaṃ paṭhamajjhāna bhūmiyaṃ paṭisandhi- bhavanga-cutivasena pavattati. […]
The first jhāna resultant occurs in the first jhāna plane as the rebirth-linking, life-continuum, and death (consciousness);

All the bhavanga cittas during the long lifespan of the beings in the fine material sphere are the result of whichever jhana conditioned the rebirth consciousness. However, during that life other types of citta may arise- hence they are able to hear, think and so on.

It is like this human world - we are born human as the result of kusala kamma done in the past. Yet we often have akusala cittas.

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In upaccara samadhi there is also nimitta. Upaccara samadhi differs from Jhana by the strength and stability of jhana factors, in particular the absence of interruptions of a series of moments of intense awareness of the object (nimitta) by other objects - thoughts and moments of falling into the bhavanga state. Therefore, in upaccara samadhi, vague thoughts and slight clouding and momentary oblivion can seemingly exist.

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Jhāna is emerged from and then one goes through a reviewing phase and can take the previous jhāna dhammas as vipassana objects. Jhāna leaves a very strong residual impression and that is why it is used for nāma dhammas. In fact, the “basic reviewing” of jhāna factors for fivefold mastery is not much different and used as a stepping stone for knowing nāma dhammas. These are all explained in the Pa-Auk meditation manuals, specifically the nāma kammatthāna book.

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Ch VIII 232 mentions jhāna (appanā) cittas and the following insight cittas:

> 232. (xi) Concentrating (samādahaṃ) the [manner of] consciousness

Concentrating (samādahaṃ) the [manner of] consciousness: evenly (samaṃ) placing (ādahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means of the first jhāna and so on.

Or alternatively, when, having entered upon those jhānas and emerged from them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhāna as liable to destruction and to fall, then at the actual time of insight, momentary unification of the mind(64) arises through the penetration of the characteristics of impermanence, and so on.

Thus the words, “He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in … shall breathe out concentrating the [manner of] consciousness,’” are said also of one who evenly places the mind, evenly puts it on its object by means of the momentary unification of the mind arisen thus.

note 64 tika*“Momentary unification of the mind”: concentration lasting only for a moment. For that too, when it occurs uninterruptedly on its object in a single mode and is not overcome by opposition, fixes the mind immovably, as if in absorption* (Vism-mhṭ 278).

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When the Buddha describes the 3 knowledges and is referring to the Four Noble Truths part that is vipassana. The other two knowledges aren’t vipassana (past lives and kamma). Only way to work it out is to do it. Sounds easy in the books. :slight_smile:

They are done with vipassana knowledge in accordance with the pa-auk method and manuals, or abhiññā, but vipassana knowledge of past lives is mentioned in the 5th method books.. ie.. the whole pa-auk (vipassana) course can be done with access.